Bright child has no friends at preschool

[Tetherless]

My son started at preschool in September, having turned 3 last May (so is still 3). He’d never been to childcare before and we’d had a very isolated existence during covid as all family live abroad and we had to shield for the first lockdown. He struggled a lot settling in initially - wouldn’t sit with other children at meals, cried at drop off etc - but by the end of the first term he was joining in with everything, got on really well with the staff and seemed to me to have made huge progress.

He didn’t play with other kids at all at first but now does to a limited degree (apparently mainly when he can lead the activity). He much prefers talking to the adults. The staff have said that they are concerned with his social communication because he doesn’t have friends yet and have mentioned ASD as something they are thinking about.

DS is and always has been incredibly advanced - he met all milestones early, particularly those relating to communication (babbled with consonants at 4 months, pointing and first words at 8 months, sentences at 13 months). His maths is similarly advanced and he is extremely musical. He can read pretty well (on year 1 books atm). He is incredibly sensitive, imaginative, has a fantastic memory and sense of humour and is creative with a very wide range of interests. Motor skills wise he walked early, could ride a bike before he was 3, draws really well and starting to write. He has no sensory issues, eats and sleeps well and I have never considered him to have any kind of rigidness in terms of approach to routines. He’s generally pretty flexible but will sometimes kick off if he doesn’t get what he wants (which I thought was typical of his age). He is a bit of a stickler for the rules when playing games and that’s one of the things that nursery has cited (in addition to his preference for talking to adults) as “evidence” that he may be on the spectrum.

It has never crossed my mind that he is anything other than a bright but neurotypical child. Quite how bright I’m not sure. I feel that his issues making friends and preferring adults stem from a combination of natural shyness (DH and I both shy, academically high achieving kids), lack of practice due to covid and being used to being with adults, and difficulty engaging with peers whose language and interests are very different from his.

I feel that nursery has totally got it wrong but am conscious of course that they have a lot of experience (though possibly not with a child with this particular combination of circumstances). I feel slightly trapped in a parallel universe where they are seeing a completely different child from the one we see at home. They don’t seem to see his intelligence as a factor in his interactions with peers and seem keen to label him which seems crazy to me.

Should I be concerned? Is there anything I should be saying/doing with them or with him? Do I need to help him more with friendships or will it come with time? I feel slightly at a loss.

@Tetherless

Sorry but what suggests autism? He’s an early reader but he doesn’t have hyperlexia - his comprehension and spoken language is excellent. The only things nursery have raised as a concern are that he prefers speaking to adults over children and he likes enforcing rules when they play rule based games - are those things really red flags for autism?! DH and I are both neurotypical.

Everything you have written here suggests being on the spectrum.

I think it's very hard to see ASD in our own children because they are often like ourselves so you will see certain behaviors as normal. But actually that's often because we are also on the spectrum. Teachers are more objective and able to see these traits more clearly. From the desription in your OP, I would also suspect ASD.

I’m sorry but loads of parents think their dc are “exceptionally bright.” I could do the same things as your ds at the same age (I’m also a summer baby). This was more advanced than the average 3yo but I wouldn’t say he was a child genius. Saying that, I always had a really high reading age and was an A grade student with a 1st class degree so dedication and enthusiasm to learn are key (from dc and parents).

Shyness is not inherited. He doesn’t sound well socialised but hopefully he can make friends soon! Could you plan more play dates?

Also, when you say that you and DH are neurotypical, how do you know this for sure? It took me until my 40s to realise that I'm probably not neurotypical. I've also looked back now at some of my boyfriends and realised that they too were textbook Aspergers but I didn't see it at all at the time.

I have a friend who is a psychiatrist and so is her dh, both specialising in ASD. She says he is clearly on the spectrum but when she's discussed this with him he got very defensive and couldn't see it.

"shyness is not inherited"

It certainly can be. In most cases in fact!

[quote Tetherless]I’m just really confused.

Like many posters have said that my entire description of him suggests he has ASD, but most of the info that I can find is lists like this, where he doesn’t fit any of those criteria, apart from the making friends one which is in the older children box. So maybe I just fundamentally don’t understand what autism actually is or can’t find the right resources.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/autism/signs/children/[/quote]
Oh god love you OP I've just read that list and my DS at 3 wouldn't have had anything on that list either, but he's as autistic as the day is long. I do get the confusion after reading that. Sorry if I was being snarky.

I would say those are the signs and symptoms of a very broad brush 'classic' autism. It is a very broad and wide spectrum and it shows up differently for every single person who has it. The one thing they share though is a collection of difficulties - google the triad of impairments and see if any of them fit.

It also can be incredibly difficult to dx at a young age. In fact, at 5 my DS was diagnosed with social communication disorder because that was the main theming they could see and measure. They thought the rest of it was down to a speech delay, and it was only at age 8 after pushing from school, that he got the autism dx.

In terms of what you can do
Take a look at the interventions suggested for autism, in particular modelling of social communication. The NAS website has a lot of things. The one thing I wish someone had told me when we waited two years for his first dx was that if you treat them like you already have a diagnosis, you won't be doing them any harm at all and actually might be doing a power of good.

So say to yourself 'if DS did have autism, how might we parent him differently?' Chat to nursery, put a few strategies in place. (You do need a proper sit down with nursery anyway to get under the skin of their concerns). Personally, I'd still seek a referral. For him, it's going to be subtle so you want an ADOS assessment and you'll probably wait 18 months for that anyway. Get the ball rolling on that and try some bits and pieces while you wait. It doesn't have to be a huge deal.

@Teenylittlefella

The thing is - all of his peers are lockdown children. Many will have been shielding. Many will have had limited experience of socialising beyond their parents. However, the nursery is saying your son is different from the cohort that is the same age.

The autism description you have linked to are very "bald". In an able 'categorizer' we would probably expect to see early interest in pattern, letters, numbers. Identifying colours, shapes well before age 2, probably including "hexagon" etc not just the basic 4. Being specific and a little pedantic about language. For example being very clear that this is an ape because it has no tail and therefore can't be a monkey, or correcting when an adult says "don't jump in the puddles" to say "I am not jumping, I am stepping". A tendency to seek out adults and for speech to be highly content focused ie telling them facts about dinosaurs or reporting infractions by others. Distress caused by things not being "as they should be" - eg someone cheating in a game, or sometimes a misinterpreting of social intent, eg interpreting an accidental bump as purposeful. We might expect more interest in older children (who will adapt their language) or younger children (who will generally allow domination and rule setting).

We might expect a high level of knowledge in one or two areas of interest. Thomas the tank engine is classic, but could be dinosaurs, animals, football, car types, anything really.

Autism teams are creaking under referral pressures ATM - it's likely even if you agree tomorrow to refer that he will be waiting 1-2 years.
So do have a good think before deciding he's definitely NT.

15 years on diagnostic team btw.

You're describing my son to a T but his school are resistant to assessment 😭

Small childrens friendships are created by the adults around them. If a three year old doesn’t have a friend then it’s because they aren’t facilitated in doing so. Some children learn to read earlier than others. Neither has anything to do with autism.

I understand this is hard to take on board but honestly when you work with children you get a feel for children who are on the spectrum. Exactly what you have described about your son would make me think he is on the spectrum. The fact he struggles in interact with others alone would make me think there was something going on. Your circumstances were not massively different to a lot of others and nursery staff will have had other children that have not had a lot of social interactions so I would trust there instincts.

Ok, that NHS list is awful, in fact it’s borderline offensive. Talk about stereotyping. ASD is a much broader church than that, bloody hell.

DS was diagnosed at 4, just before lockdown - the process took a couple of years, but what’s been noticeable is that the older he gets, the more the differences between him and his peers show up. He’s still a bright, happy, kind, loving, warm-hearted little boy, but there are aspects of life that he finds hard. The benefit of a diagnosis is that he isn’t labelled as the naughty child at school - instead he is helped and celebrated when he achieves things that are easy for some but hard for him - like doing his best at carpet time, for example. We’re currently trying to get him an EHCP and having a diagnosis should hopefully help with that.

What do you have to lose by going through an assessment? Nothing. Whatever they come up with, he’ll still be your beautiful, clever, loving little son. ASD will not make him lesser or worse or a failure or anything else. He will still be himself. But IF he starts to diverge more from his peers, you’ll have that backup to get him support - as a wise friend of mine said, ‘labels are scary but we can forge them from wood and metal and use them to beat unhelpful people over the head with’ (she has a way with words…). And if he doesn’t need the support, you’ve lost nothing.

@GiraffesInScarfs

OP I am quite disturbed by some of your comments which are ill-informed, misguided and frankly rather ignorant. I am sure that is not your intention but your comments appear to represent autism as some kind of terrible affliction, which is massively offensive. I will try to reply properly tomorrow.

OP is worried about her son and huge misconceptions about autism are everywhere (including the NHS list of symptoms). I think being ‘massively offended’ and ‘disturbed’ is a bit ott..

I’m in Ireland, so my advice might be slightly off, but often times a public diagnosis might take a few years, so it’s often recommended to put their name down early.

My son doesn’t have autism but has sensory processing issues but as he went to school with a diagnosis and a plan, he was never labelled as naughty and was supported hugely which has meant school has been a hugely positive experience. Another boy didn’t have that benefit and struggled hugely and had to leave the school.

Thank you for the further replies.

I am finding it difficult to respond without sounding defensive because I guess I do feel defensive! I honestly don’t recognise my son from the descriptions - eg thank you @Teenylittlefella for the helpful overview of language differences. I wouldn’t describe DS as interested particularly in letters or numbers - yes he can read but his main interests are music, stories and imaginative play (both small world and role play, which he does alone and with us). He is such an engaging conversationalist - very much 2 way conversations, he asks lots of interesting questions. He has a wide range of interests and doesn’t seem to have any desire to learn a lot of facts particularly, though perhaps is too young for that still. But he doesn’t have a favourite tv programme or book series or anything like that or any one thing that he likes to do. He’s not distressed by things not being as they should be - as I said he is flexible. He does at times want to insist on doing things his way, but not all the time, and he no longer throws tantrums when he doesn’t get what he wants (though he did this from about 2.5-3ish which coincided with his sibling being born and I thought normal).

At nursery school he is happy to join in with all the other children in circle time, snack time, performing a dance for parents etc.

I have noticed since he started nursery that he’s often “sillier” at home - he will call things poo and bum - clearly picked up from other kids at nursery. I see him watching other kids when out and about and he will smile at them and seems really keen to join in. He has recently started talking to random kids in the park.

I asked him today why he didn’t say hello to a child we knew that we passed on the street and he said he was shy to do it in front of me. I generally find him to be very aware of both his own feelings and the feelings of others, and able to tell me (eg he will explain why his baby sister is upset).

I clearly don’t have a good grasp of the full range of ASD but at least some of the points above don’t entirely seem to fit the profile.

If you had asked me last week I’d have said he is naturally shy but improving all the time. Now I understand that j need to take on board the idea that that might be wrong, that he might actually get worse over time, and I need to set things in motion now so that help is there in future if I need it. So thank you for this.

It’s not that he will get worse per say - it’s more that the demands of life will change and he may or may not be equipped to deal with them. For example, DS is said to struggle with his focus at school. Now if he’s focussed on something he has chosen, he’s completely in the zone - Lego building, reading, whatever. But what he struggles with is focussing when someone else has chosen the activity - so if he was building his Lego and I was to say ‘hey, let’s draw a picture!’ he’d say no thanks (or just not hear me speaking, such is the focus). As an adult this may well stand him in excellent stead - DH is a coder, as is his brother and being able to focus on a task for long periods is a very good thing indeed! But as a child, he doesn’t get to specialise, he is supposed to do what the teachers want. Which he would rather not do, and doesn’t see why he should 🙈 However, because he has a diagnosis, the school have had the impetus to work around that - they use ‘first and then’ to get him working what they want (or ‘first we will do writing and then you can build a model’). Rather than getting cross with him and punishing him.

To me ASD is an umbrella under which there can be quite a wide variety of individual quirks and issues.

I had a very similar conversation about DD when she was 3. She always ALWAYS wore a bobble hat and was a bit shy (there was more but I didn't recognise it). We both come from a long line of gentle clever eccentrics so I suppose that influenced me.

I opposed an assessment but relented under pressure. I opposed the diagnosis and insisted on further private assessments.

She was diagnosed at 4. I ignored it.

By Yr 1 I was profoundly grateful that the brilliant teachers could adjust their teaching methods to benefit her and it's all gone from there.

You won't get a diagnosis if your child doesn't have ASD.

But any understanding you do gain about what they need will only support them in the future. Life and school can be tough going on any child. Mine are teenagers now and their lives are quite different from my experiences. But being able to smooth their path (even in tiny ways - seamless socks, the right pen, extra time to process instructions) helps.
Think long term and get ahead when you can is my advice.

You seem determined to believe that the nursery are wrong and you are right. I’ve asked this previously but I don’t think you responded, if nursery had said instead that they thought there was something wrong with DS eyesight, and you hadn’t noticed anything, would you believe they were wrong and you were right? Would you take him to the optician just to check? Would you refuse to take him because you are worried about the stigma of having glasses?

No, of course not @toomuchlaundry - I would get him checked and I will do now as well as I’ve said.

But to use your analogy, if they were basing their worries about his eyesight on the fact that he wasn’t looking at the eye chart that day (not the greatest example but you get my point), then I might question whether the test was necessary, especially if I thought that the test itself had the potential to cause stress and worry for my son. Whilst I appreciate nursery has lots of experience, equally I’m not doing my job for my son if I just accept what is said without considering whether or not I agree with it.

@Tetherless

The tests aren’t hard, they just ask you to complete surveys and look for behaviours.

But you’re not an optician, and using the eye test analogy your son could have a lazy eye without divergence and you’d never spot it as you lack the training and equipment and beyond the age of 8 it’s very hard to correct without surgery.

Why do you think it would worry and stress him?

I think that there are so many misconceptions out there about asd that most parents feel upset when it's first raised.

One particular misconception is that people with asd lack empathy. Whilst this can be true, it can often go to the other extreme; they can be extremely empathetic and tuned in to other's feelings. For example autists will often be extremely sensitive and tuned in to animals - think of the likes of Chris Packham. From what I have observed, I believe that a high percentage of vegans (for the animals) are on the spectrum. The idea that people with asd don't have emotion or lack empathy is nonsense. I think often they have too much.

@OldWivesTale true highly sensitive people are often autistic.

Sorry but what suggests autism? He’s an early reader but he doesn’t have hyperlexia - his comprehension and spoken language is excellent

The teacher suggested that my DS was hyperlexic - he could read very fluently but didn't have a matching level of comprehension. This was a conversation we had after I had asked for more difficult reading books to be sent home.

Some further testing was done by a specialist teacher - His reading age was 11.6, his comprehension was 13+ and his decoding was 'off the scale'.

He was 6 at the time and went on to be diagnosed with ASD when he was 9.

I understand the reluctance to entertain the possibility that your child's teachers might have a point. (I also understand that the reluctance is inherently offensive to people with autism or DCs with autism, so I genuinely apologise for that).

My older DS was a bit like yours although not as ahead on lots of intelligence markers. Huuuuuge stickler for rules, found most other kids a bit boring and pointless, as he got older found it extremely difficult to regulate his emotions. He was markedly different from his younger brother in all these ways and at times I really struggled to parent him compassionately because he could be so frustrating.

I was so worried that a teacher would suggest ASD but I promised myself that if they ever did I would follow it up. As many others have said, teachers/nursery workers are pretty damned experienced when it comes to kids' behaviour.

As it happens nobody ever did suggest it, but in his mid-teens he started going online and looking for answers himself and now thinks that he is somewhere on the spectrum. He's an adult now so I've just said that getting a diagnosis or not is up to him, and explained the process and the steps he'd need to take.

He's doing brilliantly academically, highly sociable, loads of friends, lovely girlfriend. He's a huge joy in our lives, very funny and thoughtful and kind. But he's told me that he really needs to think hard about other people's emotional responses to things and be aware that he doesn't always instinctively understand other people's non verbal signals.

I don't know what I'm saying really, other than I also experienced that feeling of 'I really don't want this to be the case', and I know what that feels like. In our case it has and hasn't been a problem as the years went by, although looking back I suspect I would have been a better mother to him if I'd understood more about what was going on in his beautiful little head.

My honest advice would be to take a deep breath and follow the nursery's signposting. As more experienced posters have said, if he is neurotypical then that will be established and you never need to consider it again. Honestly, now this possibility has been raised, won't it nag away at you as the years go by? Isn't it better (in the kindest possible way) to put on your big girl pants and find out?

I am wondering whether it might be better to wait a while before pursuing assessment, because the process is very much based on parental feedback at this age. Having been through it, I feel that the initial referral could easily be rejected if the OP's responses reflect her lack of concern. In this instance it might be worth waiting a bit, as the situation will become clearer one way or the other.

OP, like I said in my earlier post my lads were extremely quiet and reserved at school, one of them barely spoke to the other kids. I was not concerned at all as I could see how they behaved at home. You son sounds like a lovely lad and he doesn't sound like he is unhappy or struggling with anything.

Lots of three and four year old are really boisterous, loud and silly. If you have a more reserved mature child it's hardly a surprise that they don't want to play with them.

I'm not saying I wouldn't be mindful that he is quiet but I wouldn't be rushing to get him tested at this stage. There is nothing stopping you changing you mind when he is older. I found with my boys that as the other kids settled down they ended up having plenty of friends.
My boys are adults now and are still fairly quiet, reserved and studious. They have loads of friends, lovely girlfriends and good jobs, they are happy and they are fun - what more could I ask.