Don't take Pandemrix, only Celvapan....if you can get it!

[mommymeggie]

First off, I'm not a medical advisor but I do A LOT of research b/f I make any big, rash decisions on anything! I am 7 months pregnant and have a 18 month old at home. That being said, I have been very skeptical on the whole swine flu vaccine and how it is important to pregnant women. I find it very disturbing how our medical advisors can issue these vaccines without giving us the facts behind them. What I mean is, everytime I ask questions, they seem to not know the answers but then turn around to ensure me that this shot is SAFE. Well, thats just not good enough for me!! So I listen to every brodcast, google everything possible, read every magazine and newspaper article until I'm blue in the face.....and still, nothing explains WHY this shot is so safe for pregnant women? So I've come across links in the US stating that doctors are only giving preservative free, pre-syringed shots to pregnant women as they say is the safest bet to the fetus's health. Preservative free means mercury free from the preservative Thimerosal. Thimerosal has 25mg of mercury. Basically, if you are advised to not eat fish and other things with high mercury, why would you inject yourself with a mercury perservative? Also Thimerosal has become illegal in the state of California, and soon to be other states following suit, b/c it leads to autism in children. Vaccines with mercury have been considered to contribute not only to autism but also learning disabilities, Alzheimer?s disease, and other neurological conditions, yet many clinics still use thimerosal because of the gradual phasing out of mercury products. (www.thimerosal-autism-symptoms.com/) Now, the other problem is the adjuvant Squalene. Squalene is an oily substance produced by your liver ? introducing squalene into the body via a ?vaccine? (which contains foreign substances to activate the immune system) can lead the body to consider ALL squalene bad. This can and does result in auto-immune diseases such as lupus, arthritis, and MS. Also Squalene (MF 59) was added to the anthrax vaccine. This vaccine caused tens of thousands of U.S. Iraq Desert Storm soldiers to suffer permanent neurological damage called ?Gulf War Illness.? Squalene (MF 59) enzyme is not approved for human consumption but waived for use in the H1N1 vaccine. (www.novaccine.com/vaccine-ingredients/results.asp?sc=27) The UK government bought two h1n1 vaccines.....the first one is the American company GlaxoSmithKline, who produce Pandemrix....the other is also American, Baxter, who produce Celvapan, a preservative free shot that doesn't contain any of the above. But funny enough, the government spent loads on Pandemrix b/c it was already made and happens to be cheaper to the Celvapan. And you can only receive the Celvapan if you have an egg allergy or suffer from certain medical problems that basically doesn't apply to pregnant women!

So bottom line is, I hope this gave you all a little insight on what they are trying to push into our bodies. I am not completely against the vaccines but I want to be able to have the choice of which one I want to protect me. Shame on the government for not giving us the true details of this vaccine and trying to use scare tactics to push us to have the shot. I am like every one of you out there who is nervous about having the shot but nervous about not getting one. I don't want to not be protected if it gets out of hand come flu season soon. But I think if they are saying pregnant women are priority, TOP Priority, then they should give the safest shot for us and our unborn child's wellbeing. And because of this lack of caring, I prob won't be receiving the h1n1 shot come this winter b/c I will NOT take Pandemrix!! Celvapan or nothing.

QS, that's awful. I hope he gets better soon.

oh QS, your poor DS.

It infuriates me that we are not given full information.

Well, I am back from our family doctor, with diazepam for my son. ffs, I cant start tranquilize a 4 year old before bedtime???

The family doctor was most pussled, could not believe it was anything to do with the vaccine (the paed in the night said I had to get a referral from gp to the paedeatrics polyclinic). He rang the hospital and spoke to the duty paed. The duty paed conferred with the head of the department, and they concluded he needs diazepam to help him sleep calmly at night.

Diazepam? Bloody hell. Your poor ds. Absolutely infuriating, especially gp ignoring the vaccine link. Hope he feels better soon.

QS - Do they mean, there is a common side effect of the jab, which is hallucinations? Or do they mean, if you are going to have a neurological side effect (which might be quite rare), then it would commonly be a hallucination rather than something else neurological?

Just trying to work out chich they meant by common. Can you ask them?

Hope your son feels better and gets a good night's sleep soon.

Have just had my call from the doctors to get my SF jab this Saturday. After reading all I can on here I've mad the decision I do not want Pandemrix but will risk having Celvapan. Of course when asked which I would be offered Pandemrix was the only option as I do not have an egg allergy. The receptionist said I should chat to the MW and see if she knew any way round this. I'm 12wks now and will not see the midwife until 16wks then if I manage to get Celvapan 2 doses 3wks apart gives me a lot of time to catch the flu. I want to to request that my maternity notes are updated with their refusal to vaccinate me. Will I get the argument that it was I that refused, I want to be vaccinated but not with Pandemrix will this just wind them up and ruin any chance of getting what I want. What are your thoughts/advice. Thanks

QS really sorry to hear about your DS. How very frightening and stressful for you. I really hope things are calming down for him.

QS - really sorry to hear about your DS. But it's weirdly similar to the hallucinations I had when I had flu . . I thought it was wasps rather than spiders but it was absolutely horrible and I'd lie in the bath trying to make it stop.

Your poor son.

I have enjoyed reading this though I am shocked to hear about your poor son QS. I really hope it has now stopped, please keep us posted.
My DS is also 4 & I intend to investigate if there is any way I can get access to Celvapan for him as I had pretty much decided that I wouldn't go for Pandemrix. He is not 'at risk' but my DH does have auto immune issues so I have always researched vaccines to the best of my abilities (which is only what I believe mommymeggie was doing) as I have no reason to believe that the Government guidelines are intended to be the best personal choice for me & my family! Beachcomber it is great to hear your views. I will wait longer before I make my final decision as my son is not yet at school/nursery and I am not pregnant. Harder than MMR though & I thought that decision was tough enough!!

beatuntilfluffy, both vaccines look pretty similar to me as far as I can tell. I have looked at a lot of the evidence as I'm deciding what to do for my DS. Here's what I found:

The UK medicines agency (MHRA) collect data on adverse reactions, and so far most of them have been reported for pandemrix, but that is thought to be because a much larger number of people have received pandemrix than celvapan in the UK. So although celvapan appears safer, it may have a similar rate of side effects to pandemrix if more people were given it.

Both vaccines have similar side effect profiles if you look at the summaries of product characteristics compiled by the manufacturers. (You might be interested to know that dysesthesia, the condition that QS's poor DS is suffering from, is listed as a possible adverse effects of Celvapan vaccination).

It is frustrating to feel that we aren't being given the full information, but that is because the full information isn't available yet. Pandemic flu vaccine testing in humans is done using a mock-up vaccine containing flu antigens that are different to those of the currently circulating virus. This is for practical reasons because flu changes with time, and by the time a vaccine with the current antigens in it had been tested, the flu virus would have changed again and the vaccine would no longer provide protection against the current strains.

So... it is quite possible I think that some of the side effects are due to the flu component (which is the same for both vaccines) rather than the way that the vaccine is formulated (which is the difference between the two).

So in summary I think there is insufficient evidence to say that one is safer than the other.

The other aspect to it that I noticed people tend not to focus on so much, is which is more effective at protecting against flu. If you are going to have one, all else being equal, you might as well go for the one with the best protection. In that regard, protection is more complete at 21 days with pandemrix.

Hi.
I'm new on here and of a vaguely medical background, and I may not have read everything on the DS suffering from nightmares but...
One of the side effects of Pandemrix in children is nightmares and hallucinations. Diazepam may work in the short term, but trust your insincts.
I personally WILL NOT have Pandemrix. It's Celvepan or nothing for my 2yr old daughter and I, and even that contains the carcinogen formaldehyde. If I was single (my DH has an autoimmune disease) and childless I wouldn't touch the vaccines.
This is such an ethical and moral minefield, isn't it? So confusing.

babsbaby, have you got a lot of experience with giving people celvepan? How do you know that the side effects would not be a feature of either of the vaccines? I guess what I'm asking is, is your experience of both vaccines fairly equal? There is just more data on pandemrix from what I have seen so far.

Babsbaby- Formaldehyde is what mosts worries me about Celvapan. I am booked in the morning to receive my shot and to be honest, very nervous about it. I personally wouldn't take anything either if I wasn't 32wks pregnant and have an 18 month old at home. Ethical and moral minefield is def spot on!

Beatuntilfluffy- I've been offered the Celvapan by just talking to my nurse and told her I didn't feel comfortable taking the Pandemrix b/c of the preservative that contained mercury and the squalene. I asked her if there were any chance i could receive the Celvapan instead. She said leave it with her as she didn't know and would get back to me. She called me back two days later and said she had my name down and was sent to the Primary Care Trust in our area. Now I am booked in tomorrow for the first of two clinics to receive the Celvapan. If you happen to try it as I have and you come up without one, I've read where women who have called their Primary Care Trust directly and asked for Celvapan themselves stating their concern.....and if desperate, I also read where some have told a white lie about having an egg allergy just to receive it. I know thats not the proper thing to do but if you feel very strongly about it, then you have to do what you have to do. Hope that info helps for you.

fijibird- Thank you for your comment. People like you are the reason I posted this thread, not to scare anyone but to make people more aware that there are two sides to every story.

QS- I'm so sorry to hear your 4yr old is having such a hard time! My heart goes out to him and you for going through something like that. Thank you for posting. I hope to hear back soon good news that the hallucinations have worn off and your DD is happy again. Poor thing! I will def keep you in mind when they call up my 18 month old to get the shot. No Pandemrix for her!!!...and I thank you for making me aware of that!

Oh my goodness - if we read the ingredients and possible side effects on EVERY single medication we took, or vaccine we received we would never take any of them!

No mother wants to put her unborn baby at risk but endlessly trying to assess the ingredients of the vaccine, and studies that we can find on the internet which (lets face it) the majority of us do not have the medical training or context to understand is not going to make the decision any easier for us, or make those who have already made the decision feel any better about it.

It's a very personal choice and there is not "right answer"....whichever way we go, it could be a mistake and if that's the case, we just have to be kind to ourselves and accept the fact that we made the decision that was right for us at the time. Currently (and this is a fact) 1 in every 100 babies is born with a birth defect of some type or other, REGARDLESS of whether we are vaccinated/not vaccinated/have SF/don't have SF.....please lets not start setting ourselves up for a lifetime of guilt by blaming everything that ever happens to these unborn children on a decision that we made to have a vaccine/or not have a vaccine.

On a brighter note, statistically, we will all probably be just fine either way. x

Lumpasmelly - don't most people read the ingredients and side effects of every midication they take? I certainly do.

I posted a thread here about my diazepam dilemma as i felt I could not gatecrash about that here.

I have had conflicting advice from the doctors. My fahters home nurse was adamant that this was a common side effect. When I rang the out of hours in the night, they were concerened that this was a side effect of the vaccine, I first spoke to the nurse, who took the details, then the doctor called me up, and she said she wanted to confer with the paed in charge at the hospitals childrens department, who also said the same, and asked me to go to the gp to get a referral. My gp had never heard of such a side effect. He rang the paed dept of the hospital, the paed in charge spoke to the department head and phoned my gp back. He then said it was unconclsive but would treat it as night terror and give diazepam, and it did not really matter if the cause was something psychological at home, or the vaccine. ...

I am very confused by it all.

By ihearttruffles Thu 19-Nov-09 14:43:45
QS - Do they mean, there is a common side effect of the jab, which is hallucinations? Or do they mean, if you are going to have a neurological side effect (which might be quite rare), then it would commonly be a hallucination rather than something else neurological?

I think they meant the latter. Though, for ds, it was more the sensation of spiders crawling under his skin, than actually seing spiders. (He did that too, in the beginning)

But now that I have discovered that the quiet room in his nursery, where they go to rest after lunch, is decorated as a dungeon with big hairy decorative spiders, I sort of see where he gets the spiders from....

Fanjolina - the point I was trying to make is that there are "rare" side effects with most medications and medical procedures.......my contraceptive pill had a huge list of things that "could" happen to me, some of them quite scary; when my son had his MMR I signed a disclaimer to accept the fact that he could be the 1 in a million child to die from the vaccine; when I had an ERPC after a miscarriage I signed a disclaimer that my uterus my be punctured and I might end up with a hysterectomy;.....the list goes on. If we were to question every single vaccine or medical procedure that is offered to the extent that we are questioning the possible effects of the Swine Flu vaccine then it would make being a doctor a very difficult job!

If you want to make yourself feel bad, why not surf the internet and look up the research associated with catching flu while being pregnant (regular flu) and the impact on your unborn child......there are links to schizophrenia and autism that have been documented......I'm not trying to freak anyone out, but if you look hard enough you can poke holes in anything. I'm not saying that you shouldn't get the jab as I believe it is a personal decision, but there is nothing to be gained from highlighting every single possible little thing that could go wrong (oh - there are also lots of studies looking at the impact of stress on your pregnancy - proof that we shouldn't be winding ourselves up about this too much).

I agree with lumpasmelly, you could drive yourself mad thinking about what could happen with everything that you take.

I have had the vaccine and, although sometimes I worry about the effects it might have on my unborn child, I still believe that I have done the right thing with the knowledge and information that I had about the vaccine and about swine flu at that time.

Just thought I would share some interesting information I discovered today... The Dept of Health issued a document yesterday to all NHS Trusts and PCT's stating, amongst other things, that as it's so important (in their opinion) for all pregnant women to receive the vaccine, "if a pregnant woman does not wish to receive Pandemrix, despite receiving clear advice about the more rapid protection this (Pandemrix) would offer, PCT's should ensure that there are arrangements in place for her to be able to receive Celvapan, and that GP's are aware of these." Try this link for the full document www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/@dh/@en/documents/digitalasset/dh_108855 .pdf

Great news for those of us who don't want Pandemrix but haven't had any luck with our GP's thus far, go back armed with this document and I can't see how they can refuse!

hi - link not working, can you post it again? Thanks.

Here is the link that flaquita tried to send. Thank you for finding this!! Good news for pregnant women who have been wanting this vaccine over the Pandemrix.

here

Well said - I have read everything I could too and after starting with the official vaccine insert produced by the manufacturer - knew there would be reasons to worry. You can read it at your doctor's or online at the US FDA site tinyurl.com/les32r

It states clearly on page 2, paragraph 4 that:

?Safety & effectiveness of A (H1N1) vaccine have not been established in pregnant women, nursing mothers or children less than 4 years of age.?

Can't believe it says that the safety has NOT been established! I read the other insert from the other manufacturer too and it states that "trials in pregnant women are ongoing". ONGOING?! does that mean all pregnant women receiving the shot are part of the trial?

For me, that is a gamble just not worth taking.

I wish us all wise decisions

tina, that is the way that all data is gathered on the safety of drugs and vaccines in pregnant women. It is usual to test a drug or vaccine in non pregnant individuals, get that treatment approved for use, and maintain a pregnancy registry, where instances of exposure to the treatment in pregnancy are documented.

It is not possible in the time available for the manufacturers to have extensive human pregnancy data on these vaccines with the swine flu component prior to their approval, although there is a lot of data on the safety of similar flu vaccines in pregnancy. So until there is a body of data for these specific vaccines, you have to go on data generated by vaccination of pregnant animals with the swine flu vaccine, and experience from previous flu vaccines with a similar formulation in pregnant women.

Some of us evaluate medicines all the time as part of our job btw, but appreciate that not everyone does

Not sure if you are specifically part of a trial of the vaccine if you are pregnant - there are very clear guidelines on informed consent if you are, so it can't be the case.

Flockwallpaper:
Is that how Thalidamide was rolled out? And Vioxx?

Happy you are more of an expert, I can only question from a humble mum/grandma perspective. BUT in the end, the decisions I make are ones that I will have to live with and I won't take the lightly - or rely on untestesed medication.