Don't take Pandemrix, only Celvapan....if you can get it!

[mommymeggie]

First off, I'm not a medical advisor but I do A LOT of research b/f I make any big, rash decisions on anything! I am 7 months pregnant and have a 18 month old at home. That being said, I have been very skeptical on the whole swine flu vaccine and how it is important to pregnant women. I find it very disturbing how our medical advisors can issue these vaccines without giving us the facts behind them. What I mean is, everytime I ask questions, they seem to not know the answers but then turn around to ensure me that this shot is SAFE. Well, thats just not good enough for me!! So I listen to every brodcast, google everything possible, read every magazine and newspaper article until I'm blue in the face.....and still, nothing explains WHY this shot is so safe for pregnant women? So I've come across links in the US stating that doctors are only giving preservative free, pre-syringed shots to pregnant women as they say is the safest bet to the fetus's health. Preservative free means mercury free from the preservative Thimerosal. Thimerosal has 25mg of mercury. Basically, if you are advised to not eat fish and other things with high mercury, why would you inject yourself with a mercury perservative? Also Thimerosal has become illegal in the state of California, and soon to be other states following suit, b/c it leads to autism in children. Vaccines with mercury have been considered to contribute not only to autism but also learning disabilities, Alzheimer?s disease, and other neurological conditions, yet many clinics still use thimerosal because of the gradual phasing out of mercury products. (www.thimerosal-autism-symptoms.com/) Now, the other problem is the adjuvant Squalene. Squalene is an oily substance produced by your liver ? introducing squalene into the body via a ?vaccine? (which contains foreign substances to activate the immune system) can lead the body to consider ALL squalene bad. This can and does result in auto-immune diseases such as lupus, arthritis, and MS. Also Squalene (MF 59) was added to the anthrax vaccine. This vaccine caused tens of thousands of U.S. Iraq Desert Storm soldiers to suffer permanent neurological damage called ?Gulf War Illness.? Squalene (MF 59) enzyme is not approved for human consumption but waived for use in the H1N1 vaccine. (www.novaccine.com/vaccine-ingredients/results.asp?sc=27) The UK government bought two h1n1 vaccines.....the first one is the American company GlaxoSmithKline, who produce Pandemrix....the other is also American, Baxter, who produce Celvapan, a preservative free shot that doesn't contain any of the above. But funny enough, the government spent loads on Pandemrix b/c it was already made and happens to be cheaper to the Celvapan. And you can only receive the Celvapan if you have an egg allergy or suffer from certain medical problems that basically doesn't apply to pregnant women!

So bottom line is, I hope this gave you all a little insight on what they are trying to push into our bodies. I am not completely against the vaccines but I want to be able to have the choice of which one I want to protect me. Shame on the government for not giving us the true details of this vaccine and trying to use scare tactics to push us to have the shot. I am like every one of you out there who is nervous about having the shot but nervous about not getting one. I don't want to not be protected if it gets out of hand come flu season soon. But I think if they are saying pregnant women are priority, TOP Priority, then they should give the safest shot for us and our unborn child's wellbeing. And because of this lack of caring, I prob won't be receiving the h1n1 shot come this winter b/c I will NOT take Pandemrix!! Celvapan or nothing.

It just amazes me how people only pick up on the down sides to taking the vaccine. NOTHING has been proven about it one way or another and as many users have said, it it a very difficult time for pregnant women (my wife included) trying to make decisions on how best to protect their unborn child but the main consideration that people seem to miss is how best to protect the mum. Now that's not to say that that's all its about, of course I am deeply concerned for our unborn but if you want facts then it's the mothers who are potentially at most risk from swine flu (or any flu). I do agree that there are things in the vaccine currently being offered to the UK population of pregnant women that are of concern - like Mercury but this constant 'These are the facts - don't take it' attitude just isn't helping. I do honestly think that everyone has to make there own mind up about whether they have the vaccine or not and that should be their final say - none of this trying to sway people or scare them off with information that has as much proof as the next 'I told you so' article that's printed.

We are lucky enough (as my wife is a key healthcare worker) that she has a variety of people in the medical profession that she can talk to and although there are some that say they are not 100% sure about the vaccine, they are all 100% sure that swine flu can be very serious for pregnant women.

As someone said earlier - the vaccine hasn't been tested on pregnant women for very obvious reasons - no vaccine is and the result of this is that women who do have it are guinea pigs but do you HONESTLY believe that this country would put it's pregnant women and unborn children at that much risk? Based on the fact that most pregnant women who contract swine flu make a full recovery then the health authority MUST see the possible complications from the vaccine as STILL being less than the potential small risk from swine flu itself.

Lets just keep a level head here and please remember that its the mums we really need to worry about here...

With all "do" respect mommymeggie, you're clearly one of those odd types in to conspiracy theories. I expect that the majority of your info/cut-and-pastes comes from dodgy conspiracy theory web sites.

Also, learn to spell. You conspiracy theory types can feign intellect with your stupid ever-so-clever sounding theories, but you always let yourselves down with your actual um ..............intellect.
One thing which I really fail to understand is why conspiacy theorists are so depserate to try to enlighten others of their beliefs. It's so arrogant and ridiculous.

Actually if you want a conspiracy theory allegedly Baxter who makes Celvepan have done some dodgy things in the past and there conspiracy theories out there saying don't take Celvepan. [Just to make the Pandemrix takers feel better!]

Just wanted to add to this that my mom who lives in Switzerland has informed that Pandemrix has not been allowed to be used on pregnant women and children under 17 years of age.

you do know that the human body produces squalene all on it's own right? this hideous poison - your own body produces it and then uses it to make vitamin d amongst other compounds.

but hey, it sounds scary and synthetic so don't let me stop you scaring yourselves.

Swiss are cautious and conservative in their approach to everything (my husband grew up in Switerland) so it doesn't suprise me that they are offering a non adjuvanted vaccine to pregnant women even though we know that Pandemix is safe.

Like the US, they are probably worried that pregnant women (or in the US, people in general) simply won't take the vaccine after all the misinformation out there on adjuvants and aditives.

And also like the US, it also helps that Switzerland has a private health care system so they can afford to pay more for a vaccine that will give their population's peace of mind (even if taking the adjuvanted vaccine is just as safe).

Mso that's why the use of squalene as an adjuvant is controversial, because it is a compound that humans produce and need.

The concern is that it is possible for squalene containing vaccines to stimulate the production of squalene antibodies.

Antibodies in the body against a substance in the body can = autoimmunity.

Beachcomber, have you seen this brief report from WHO? I would be interested to know what you think of it.

As far as I can see, concerning mercury and thiomersal, many people do not realise that there is a difference in the mercury containing compounds in fish or seafood - methylmercury and thiomersal, which is metabolised to ethylmercury. See here

There is a risk : benefit equation for all drugs. No drug on earth with decent levels of efficacy is absolutely 100% safe.

The risk posed by either of the vaccines is probably smaller than the risk of serious complications to the mother or baby(including death) from swine flu in the form that it is in right now - a relatively mild disease for most people. The added benefit of being vaccinated is that you are also helping to protect vulnerable family members, such as young children, whom you may go on to infect if you become infected yourself.

If the virus mutates to a more severe form as happened in the 1918 pandemic, this is when risk relative to the benefit starts to look really small. If people start to die in large numbers, I promise you won't care that there is a bit of mercury or squalene in the vaccine. You will want the protection that the vaccine affords.

Not even world experts in flu can predict if or when the disease might change. I am not scaremongering, but pointing out that the risk : benefit may change with time, and that it may change suddenly, ... you may not be able to react quickly enough to be able to protect yourself. So I would advise you to get one of the vaccines, but of course it is up to you.

P.S. I don't work for a vaccine company

Whether squalene was in gulf war vaccines seems to be a controversial subject. WHO says it never was in any of the vaccines, apparently according to www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=31730 thiss]] article the investigative arm of Congress said: '
We cannot say definitively whether or not Gulf War-era veterans were given vaccines with adjuvant formulations containing squalene for a number of reasons. Although DoD officials told us they did not administer such vaccines, they stated they did not have documentation on the process and results of decision-making related to the administration of vaccines at the time of the Gulf War. Also, some officials involved in the decisions were no longer employed with DoD at the time of our review, and we were either unable to locate them, or they declined to be interviewed.'

gah. this article [preview, preview]

Can I ask you guys a question? Many of you seem very knowledgable.

My son (4 1/2) got pandemrix (no choice of vaccine, and he is "at risk" group) monday 2 weeks ago. Last monday he woke up in hysterics, saying he had spiders crawling everywhere under his skin, and in his throat. He was literally jumping around the house brushing away invisible spiders from his skin It took us a few hours to calm him down, only after standing 20 minutes in the shower, did the feeling subside.

He remembered it very well the next morning.

The same happened the next night, the night after, and the 3rd night, then it stopped.

I spoke to a nurse who said this was a side effect of the vaccine. Could this be true?

Gosh I've no idea QS. Was he feverish at all?

no temperature. it was very odd.

I was speaking to someone today whose dh had it and his arm was VERY painful afterwards, so painful it kept him awake. Maybe this was part of the problem. I do know that pandremix is more painful than the Baxter one.

Mumtoem I have seen that WHO page.

I don't have a lot of time right now (supposed to be working to finish something for tomorrow) to comment.

I think the WHO article is a bit misleading because it fails to mention that the FDA detected squalene in some lots of anthrax vaccine that were given to soldiers who then went on to develop GWS. Indeed they imply that none of the vaccines contained squalene. This is, going by the FDA's own investigation, simply not true.

WHO also fails to reference the study they cite which looked at (and found) a link between vaccination status, squalene antibodies and GWS. They also fail to reference the "Various papers (which) have been published outlining the technical deficiencies in that original report".

I'm guessing the study they wish to discredit is this one but I haven't come across a robust criticism of it yet. I would be interested to see the reports the WHO refer to if anyone here has an idea what they are. Thanks.

I got two letters from the doctor's surgery today inviting me (asthmatic) and my ds (T1 Diabetic) to have the vaccine. My instinct screams 'Nooooooooo' not least because we were all laid low last week with something resembling flu. I also worry because our family health history is peppered with auto immune issues which I would rather not exacerbate.

Beachcomber I like you.

QS, your poor DS- I think that is a side effect, although it is pretty uncommon. Def take your DS back to the doctor if it continues.

Thanks Spidermama . Was it you who had a thread a while back about your children's experience of measles ar am I mixing you up with someone else?

QS I have heard of 'skin crawling' itching type sensations as reactions to flu vaccines before.

How horrible for you all to go through that, I hope your DS is OK now. You must have been terribly concernced especially the throat sensation. When you have time you should definitely report this through the Yellow Card system. Normally your doctor will do it for you but you can do it yourself.

Yes Beachcomber I had the measles thread back in June.

I think this thread has convinced me to go shead with the jab....impressive given the OPs original intentions Thanks esp to Musu

ahead. Sorry.

Btw, I was really impressed with the (mostly) balanced and respectful level of debate on this thread - it feels rather different from the usual, highly emotive (and personal) sniping that I expect to find on MN for anything remotely 'topical'. Thanks to (almost) all posters for re-instating my respect for MN as a relevant forum for 'real' issues.

I have just had it confirmed to me. Our poor 4 year old son is suffering vivid hallucinations as a side effect from Pandemrix, and this is still going on afte more than 2 weeks. The medical team has told me it is a typical neurological side effect. They dont know for how long it will last.

Why were we not given the full truth about side effects?

Shit QS I'm so sorry to hear that. I have been wondering how you were getting on.

I don't know your position on homeopathy but I know good ones work to help minimize vaccine reactions. If I were you I would try to see a homeopath as soon as you can and explain exactly what has happened.

This might sound crazy but it cannot do any harm and I have read so many times how it has been able to help. (I have a vaccine damaged daughter).

Sorry your family and your son are going through this.

Oh QS I'm so sorry.