Don't take Pandemrix, only Celvapan....if you can get it!

[mommymeggie]

First off, I'm not a medical advisor but I do A LOT of research b/f I make any big, rash decisions on anything! I am 7 months pregnant and have a 18 month old at home. That being said, I have been very skeptical on the whole swine flu vaccine and how it is important to pregnant women. I find it very disturbing how our medical advisors can issue these vaccines without giving us the facts behind them. What I mean is, everytime I ask questions, they seem to not know the answers but then turn around to ensure me that this shot is SAFE. Well, thats just not good enough for me!! So I listen to every brodcast, google everything possible, read every magazine and newspaper article until I'm blue in the face.....and still, nothing explains WHY this shot is so safe for pregnant women? So I've come across links in the US stating that doctors are only giving preservative free, pre-syringed shots to pregnant women as they say is the safest bet to the fetus's health. Preservative free means mercury free from the preservative Thimerosal. Thimerosal has 25mg of mercury. Basically, if you are advised to not eat fish and other things with high mercury, why would you inject yourself with a mercury perservative? Also Thimerosal has become illegal in the state of California, and soon to be other states following suit, b/c it leads to autism in children. Vaccines with mercury have been considered to contribute not only to autism but also learning disabilities, Alzheimer?s disease, and other neurological conditions, yet many clinics still use thimerosal because of the gradual phasing out of mercury products. (www.thimerosal-autism-symptoms.com/) Now, the other problem is the adjuvant Squalene. Squalene is an oily substance produced by your liver ? introducing squalene into the body via a ?vaccine? (which contains foreign substances to activate the immune system) can lead the body to consider ALL squalene bad. This can and does result in auto-immune diseases such as lupus, arthritis, and MS. Also Squalene (MF 59) was added to the anthrax vaccine. This vaccine caused tens of thousands of U.S. Iraq Desert Storm soldiers to suffer permanent neurological damage called ?Gulf War Illness.? Squalene (MF 59) enzyme is not approved for human consumption but waived for use in the H1N1 vaccine. (www.novaccine.com/vaccine-ingredients/results.asp?sc=27) The UK government bought two h1n1 vaccines.....the first one is the American company GlaxoSmithKline, who produce Pandemrix....the other is also American, Baxter, who produce Celvapan, a preservative free shot that doesn't contain any of the above. But funny enough, the government spent loads on Pandemrix b/c it was already made and happens to be cheaper to the Celvapan. And you can only receive the Celvapan if you have an egg allergy or suffer from certain medical problems that basically doesn't apply to pregnant women!

So bottom line is, I hope this gave you all a little insight on what they are trying to push into our bodies. I am not completely against the vaccines but I want to be able to have the choice of which one I want to protect me. Shame on the government for not giving us the true details of this vaccine and trying to use scare tactics to push us to have the shot. I am like every one of you out there who is nervous about having the shot but nervous about not getting one. I don't want to not be protected if it gets out of hand come flu season soon. But I think if they are saying pregnant women are priority, TOP Priority, then they should give the safest shot for us and our unborn child's wellbeing. And because of this lack of caring, I prob won't be receiving the h1n1 shot come this winter b/c I will NOT take Pandemrix!! Celvapan or nothing.

I try not to, no

Beachcomber - Mommymeggie hasn't broken it down into paragraphs because she has directly quoted from: here - its one of the comments from the bottom of the page.

Mommymeggie, being rude to people is not a reasoned debate, nor does quoting from random email rants make you a an able researcher.

The facts are very simple. Since August there have been more pediatric deaths recorded in the states due to this flu than there are total in an average flu season in the States.

That total misses out the pediatric deaths from the May-July wave of this flu. By the end of the winter there will be many, many more pediatric deaths due this flu. It is not going to wait for people to be able to pick their ideal flu vaccine. Medicine is not an idealised science, it is real - 'do your best under rapidly changing, difficult circumstances' science.

Fair enough OYBBK, but even if we accept, for the sake of argument, that swine flu is as dangerous as it is currently being made out to be that doesn't justify, IMO, using a vaccine which contains adjuvants and preservatives which have documented safety issues and which could be avoided.

Could you link to any info you have re US deaths, I would be interested to take a look, cheers.

You see the US government regularly scares its population into having seasonal flu vaccines by asserting that flu is responsible for 36,ooo deaths a year without vaccination. I don't know what the exact breakdown is by age for this figure but they say that young children and the elderly are most at risk.

Going by the US government's own figures, swine flu would have to be somewhere close to those sorts of figures in terms of virulence/mortality before it could be considered anything more than just a variation on regular flu. No more no less.

Interesting thread, I don't have anything to add, but am reading in the hope that a decision will come to me at 35 weeks pregnant.

(and so I can find thread easily..)

cdc Look in each season summary Since 2004 the States have had to record all pediatric flu deaths.

The current weeks summary contains the cumulative pediatric deaths since August.

There isn't an equivalent recording for adult deaths and like you I am deeply sceptical about the 36,000 flu deaths each year. I think it is a very broad definition of flu death trying to estimate the general burden the illness causes.

In fact in a discussion of flu death modelling cdc say:

"For pneumonia and influenza (P&I) deaths, CDC estimates approximately 8,000 deaths are associated with seasonal flu. This represents 9.8% of (P&I) deaths. For respiratory and circulatory (R&C) deaths, CDC estimates approximately 36,000 deaths are associated with seasonal flu."

Sorry - wasn't clear. The first 'cdc' is a link to finding the pediatric deaths

Cheers OYBBK.

mommymeggie Musukebba's posts have been very reasoned on this thread, and he/she always provides valuable insight and knowledge on the subject of vaccination. Copying and pasting vast swathes of stuff from websites of dubious origin and not questioning them does not give you licence to be so rude to people if they disagree with you [especially if they come from a point of quite a bit of knowledge]

I struggle with the squalene issue. Largely because the USA has not allowed it in their vaccines. That rings alarm bells for me. If I could get a vaccine without it, as an asthmatic, I would get it, especially with our history of auto immune disorders. However the organophosphate theory for GWS is very interesting.

Do any of you have a subscription to Reactions? I had a research article pop up on swine flu vaccine reactions (on IngentaConnect) but don't have the full subscription so can't see it.

It is really hard to research this I think, I have been looking into it but don't really feel I am any further ahead despite having done a fair bit of reading!

Morning.

Please excuse me butting in but, just in case any of your missed the webchat with Dept of Health director of immunisation Prof David Salisbury, he had something to say about squalene here

Didn't quite clear up my query though Helen....

Listen,

This is a thread for pregnant women who are struggling to make a decision about the swine flu shot, as I am. I know there are many out there who are refusing the shot based on lack of evidence on safety measures. No one on here can say it is safe, including Mussa, b/c they clearly do not know! My argument is based on the difference between the two shots and what would be best for a pregnant woman and her unborn child. It is obviously the Celvapan. The controversy that Pandemrix carries states that it is not a safe drug for pregnant women and it has too many controversial ingredients that make me too uncomfortable to consider as a mother to be. I'm not completely against the H1N1 shot but if I had a choice, which the NHS has made it not so, it would be the Celvapan b/c they have none of the controversial ingredients. Personally, I would have none but at the end of the day, if your life and your baby's life is at risk and you absolutely had to make a choice, it would be Celvapan. My posts are simply trying to back my argument. I apologize when I post that I do not check it to make it easier to read in paragraphs. The information is well documented and I thought it had a valid point. And so I posted it to share on this thread. Here is the website for those of you wanting to read the argument www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/10/05/midwife-connection-should-pregnant-women-take-h1n1-vac cine.

Here is another website which I found also important if you are interested in this topic as much as I am
www.vaccinetruth.org/swine_flu.htm. It states that the swine flu vaccines are often wrong when tested. Read it and you make your own decision.

And as for pediatrics as kitten said, your right to some extent. In the US, they are vaccinating all children of all ages. My brother's 10yr old daughter was vaccinated at her school as was the rest of the entire school. Over here, they don't seem that worried as of yet. I personally think children should be vaccinated. I tried to get my 18month old the seasonal flu shot and was denied. And I doubt they will be giving her the swine flu vaccine either. What does that tell you? There is still time but highly doubt it will happen. I was told by a GP that children handle things differently to sickness and better than adults....but in the US, my brother was told they don't. But thats a whole other issue as to whats right and wrong. And it goes to show you why you need to do your research for yourself and your family so that you can make the right decision that is based on what you feel is right for you and your family.

And that is what I am trying to do. I am just sharing the info I find to help others make their own. I don't need any more advisors to say go and get it b/c its safe. Then prove it! You can't. The only proof will be in the future when hopefully all the babies that were vaccinated while in the womb are healthy and strong. I'll take my chances and have faith in the lord b/f I inject myself with poison to harm a perfectly healthy child.

So where will you get Celvapan? Is it available in the UK?

there is already a long and rather more finely nuanced thread discussing the merits of SF for pregnant women mommiemeggie.

SF vaccine I mean

Hey Marshabrady,

Celvapan is available here in the Uk but unfortunatly they arn't giving it to pregnant women. You have to have an egg allergy or certain medical problems to get given the preservative free shot. They say there is a limited supply and we can't buy it privately as of yet. I am very dissappointed with that decision as I'm sure you are reading this. I don't see why the government doesn't give pregnant women that shot over the pandemrix when it is clearly the safer choice. In the states, the healthcare advisors only give preservative free shots to pregnant women. My mom asked for me. I have made phone calls to the nhs and primary care trust to try and obtain a shot. They said it wasn't possible and that pandamrix was safe for pregnant women. I don't agree and word of mouth is not good enough for me. I am now 31wks pregnant and I read where you are 35wks. I think I am going to wait it out and possible have the shot after I have my baby. Either that or wait it out until we can buy it privately. I hope that helps. take care.

Thank you MNers for your support...

@mommyveggie: I sincerely hope you stay swine flu free, by whatever means.

FYI: Nurse called today and has booked me in to receive the Celvapan. To those of you pregnant women who would rather have that shot than the Pandemrix, you can get it if you try hard enough. There are people out there willing to help you have a choice. Good luck xx

I think what Musukebba says makes a lot of sense. Thanks, you've made me feel better and you sound like you know what you're talking about.

Mommymeggie - please stop scaremongering. From reading your posts you are implying that the government/british medecine is deliberately trying to create a generation of autistic children or worse. I simply do not see what they have to gain from this, and your comments arenor particularly helpful as the majority of pregnant women in the UK are not going to be able to get hold of Celvapan, so its rather unfair to sit in your Celvapan tower and accuse the rest of us or poisoning our babies when we are simply trying to protect ourselves and our unborn children from the impact of an illness that has proven to hit pregnant women very hard (and potentially kill us).

Please come back to us when you have a PhD in neural development or vaccine development...I would be more than happy to listen to your "facts" when they can be substantiated by the experts.

The Title of this thread is VERY unhelpful considering I've already had Pandremix - I'm hiding this thread. OP shame on you.

Hey Smelly, Celvapan tower?? haha! Sounds to me like your not happy with your decision when you have a dig like that. I don't have time right now to go through facts AGAIN on another post. Go read what I wrote on the pregnancy post about all of this. It def concurs with all that I have posted b/f. I'm sick of trying to give a valid opinion to people who just do what the romans do and jump when they say so. I know in my heart what the right decision is and just wanted to share why I think so with others that are pregnant. To sum it all up, too much controversy over this whole topic and you have to think to yourself...WHY??? So go and get what you wish, at least I can sleep better at night knowing squalene and thimerosal isn't affecting my unborn child.

And just a thought, how do you know I don't have a PhD??

Actually I've changed my mind and decided to repost this to concur with what I've been trying to say.

The first one are lawsuits by families that children were exposed to Thimerosal which resulted in autism. The other is a well known doctor in the states that wrote about how the CDC and FDA covered up mercury in vaccines causing autism.

www.thimerosal-news.com/html/report503.html

articles.mercola.com/sites /articles/archive/2004/03/31/mercury-vaccines-part-five.aspx

Here is the link I found for GBS
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1206807/Swine-flu-jab-link-killer-nerve-disease-Leaked- letter-reveals-concern-neurologists-25-deaths-America.html

This is my last post. I don't need to take up any more of my time trying to defend facts. The choice is yours people, get what you see is the right decision. And yes, you can get Celvapan if you try hard enough my fellow pregnant women. Its out there and if they can give it to me, they can give it to you too!!!

And one more thing, Smelly thinks I'm a scaremonger. I think the government is the scaremonger, not the people who are having second opinions as to why we need this shot. Shame Smelly, blame it on the right people next time, not the ones who are just trying to come up with reason as to why all of this is being so rushed without little knowledge behind it. I will never rush into something without weighing out the facts first. If you think you can Smelly, than yay for you!

Bye!

Don't rush into a decision to come back.

How do we know you don't have a PhD? Where do I start...?