plans for mass vaccination at schools in autumn

[pofacedandproud]

here

How do people feel about this?

There does seemt to be a desire to spread panic about not only this flu but also this flu vaccine. I'm sure there are risks with any vaccine, and my children only have it because they're in a high risk group.

I did a quick search on squalene as an adjuvant in H1N1 vaccine and I couldn't find any unbiased, fact-reporting website on the first page of hits. They were all strongly partisan and unbalanced - groups with names like 'prisonplanet','healthfreedomalliance' and 'afterarmageddon'. I shall have another search on 'squalene' and 'adjuvant' and see if I can find any responsible discussions.

I'm not in favour of putting very risky substances into my children, but I don't find much of the coverage balanced.

Has anybody read 'Bad Science'?

that's what worries me yummymummy, I think loads of people think they've had it when they've just had a bad cold.

I'm not trying to spread panic about it at all. I would like to see balanced, scientific information about the vaccine. But can you find any?

Its hard isn't it! Much of the 'literature' seems to come from either the vaccine manufacturers or antivaccine groups, and I think its unlikely we will find unbiased reports from government departments (no matter which country) as reports will probably support their wanted outcome. So to get info it will be a matter of looking at a variety of medical research papers and balancing the various reported outcomes.

or we can wait and see what happens with trials and those first to be vaccinated.

I will get it for DC1-3. Not because I'm worried about SF particularly, but it's the only way to possibly protect DC4 (18months) as he will be one of the last people to be offered it.

I think (?maybe) that in the USA that all children under ~16/over 1 ARE routinely offered an annual flu jab.

I'm ambivalent about flu vaccines in general, not bothered for myself, but... My dad used to get lots of bad respiratory-related conditions (like sinus infections) before he started having an annual flu jab about 15 years ago; since then he's not had anything like the problems he used to get. He's only 68 now, so not like he should be susceptible for any obvious reason (like age or asthma, etc). It's very compelling anecdotal evidence for me of the good that a flu vaccine can do.

What is squalene?

I feel many of us might vaccinate due to pressure from GP's, other parents at school etc etc

Truth is I don't think anyone should do it if it's of questionable composition.

Schools are an old fashioned way of learning. I think it's about time we got rid of them anyway.

Hmm some news from over here in Hicksville. I was talking to my local vaccine group (they test vaccines) we're on a vaccine programme with both DCs for Men B - the vaccine is already given in several european countries and the govt would like to introduce it here so they are giving it to (I think) 5000 babies to see what the most effective programme is (ie when it should be given because of all the other jabs). Boring background over.....

Anyway the nurse who came to assess DS last week for his follow up following stage one of the trial mentioned they are looking for babies for the swine flu vaccine in my area and would I like to think about it and we'd talk about it in a couple of months. So perhaps quite a bit of testing is going on quietly?

Incidentally, no I won't be taking them up on the offer - I had meningitis B and was very sick when I was a student, I want the kids protected from that - for sure. But I will not be giving them this one thankyouverymuch.

I will be certainly be having the vaccine and allowing my children to have it. Hopefully this will protect us all when the flu virus mutates and becomes more deadly this winter. That is going to happen and wilfully turning down a vaccine which is based on a tried and tested roadmap of a vaccine used across the world - well it just seems ridiculous to me.

Mine won't be having it, but then ds2 and ds3 haven't had any vaccinations at all yet and none have any risk factors. If they had risk factors I would consider it (like any vaccination).

How d'you know, though NL?

But the flu virus mutates every winter - and there is no routine mass-vaccination programme for that.
I really feel we are not being told the whole story.... [paranoid, moi?]

How do I know what?

That a pandemic will have subsequent more deadly phases?

History

That a vaccine offers the best protection?

History

That I personally don't want to watch my kids gasping for breath because of lung damage?

That the vaccine is safe? Well I don't know I won't get run over by a bus tomorrow, lots of people are. I will risk it though because lots of people aren't and I like crossing roads to get good stuff from the other side. I believe risk from a vaccine to be very, very small - only a fool would say non-existent. I believe the risk from a serious influenza type illness to be far, far greater. I have three children - one a toddler, one with a CHD and an asthmatic husband. This is the way I like my family and I believe a vaccine is the best way I'm going to get at keeping it that way.

squalene is apparently an adjuvant not licenses for any other vaccine in the States but it was [allegedly] a major component and trigger for Gulf War vaccines and Gulf war syndrome. again, I have no idea of the validity or authenticity of this claim. Would like to know a bit more about it though.

It is apparently needed for this vaccine as they have not enough of the virus to replicate and squalene allows them to use less of the virus.

[waits for scientists]

hippi - there is a mass vaccination campaing every year - for people in at risk gropus including those with chronic illness and the elderly. This year it's going to start sooner and include more people, that's all.

Yes, I get the risk group thing. Dh is in a risk group and gets an annual flu jab. But there is no mass-in-school vaccination for flu every year. That is what I meant.

May I inject a note of maths here.

The virus may mutate. It also might not. Chances are it will, most viruses do, so let's say there's a 90% chance it will mutate (for the sake of argument). Let's also say that at the point it mutates 30% of the population have already had version one and developed immunity to it (still with me - not full immunity, they might get a very mild version - quite commonly - but not the full blown shebang so let's not particularly worry about those folk).

Okay so 70% of the population are completely unprotected from this virus. If it mutates it will change in it's virulence or it's effects. Let's say it changes virulence - so it's more contagious - it's done that before when it started to transfer between humans so that's quite likely to happen. Right now it's not actually that virulent, if you are in a room for under an hour or a few feet away and/or the surface the virus lands on is hard it can only survive a few hours, and if it lands on your sleeve, well that little fecker has only 20 odd minutes to get sucked up your snozz before it dies.

It could also change effects. And let's say it does. Let's say that instead of overwhelming the little hairy filaments in your bronchial passages (which it does right not I believe to allow it to flourish) it say attacks the pericardial sac (the outside bit of your heart). Now that's more serious I agree, but it'll attack a different part of the population - ie old folks, very young folk and people with dodgy hearts.

Now remember to achieve this it's got to come into contact with something that does this and genetically bond with it in order to mutate and it's got to come into contact with another host in order to transfer (providing of course it's stable enough to do this - and virulent enough to survive the transmission). That's three or four conditions depending on how you look at it that it's got to go through before it has successfully changed. But yes it may well do so.

Conversely, it could change to give you a nasty case of farting. Yes, that would be bad. But you aren't going to die. Although it would probably help with encouraging quarantine.

What I don't get is why we can't commit to a voluntary quarantine? Close the fricking airports and take anyone who needs care into hospital and just bloody well stay at home for two weeks. We're an island (and yes I know the 'well as soon as you opened the airports again argument too - everyone else would have to do it too).

Viruses can't live without hosts - think of all the nasty bugs we could kill off if we did this - it'd be marvelous. Yes I know the 'country would grind to a halt' but we manage to do that every time it snows or it's christmas - why not?

Everyone stay home. I'd vote for that - I can bear my family for two weeks close contact! (Just)

I dont know.........but I am slighly LMAO at the thought of some bod at school trying to get dd to co operate! SHe would shit a brick.

who - you need to people to staff the hospitals you've just filled with folks! It's impossible to do that whilst keeping everyone at home.

As the parent of a child with a heart defect I'm just not prepared to say 'oh well the chances of flu knackering your heart are really quite small so I won't bother vaccinating you'

I don't actually think the schools service could cope with this in any case. Due to the health and safety laws they would have to have administrators for the forms to check they had been signed, a doctor on standby in case of allergic reactions, a private area to give then jabs, fridges, time, space for queueing and monitoring afterwards.

It's not like when some of us were at school and we queued up in the lunchroom to get our BCG and then went back to geography is it? There isn't that culture anymore in schools where medical stuff (nit nurses, health checks etc.) are a routine part of education.

Actually I know my parents never signed anything to allow me to have the BCG - that's quite weird isn't it?

Nothernlurker, I have a heart defect - I appreciate your worry - and I wasn't demeaning your PoV in any way - it's a perfectly valid one - and I wasn't commenting on the choice to vaccinate - in that post - what I was saying is 'we know bugger all at the minute' (which I may not have said clearly. There are far too many variables to decide anything and we are all discussing some vague plan which has probably been written six months ago when we knew even less than we do now.

Oh and NorthernLurker - yes I know some people would have to stay at work in order for the quarantine to work. But if 70% of the population stayed home - that would actually have quite a big effect and those who were infected and at work, by the end of the two weeks, no longer would be contagious anyway - do you see what I mean?

Oh ok then - fierce prickly prickles withdrawn

Totally agree with you wwmc.

Nope, 3 out of the 5 of us in my household have had it and we are all quite strong healthy people, except my 3 year old who has asthma and every winter has been ambulanced to hospital with breathing difficulties but this swine flu is not nearly as severe as anything he's had so far.

Its not nice, the sweats and headache and cough etc but its bearable, i'd say the normal flu is much worse TBH.

Its been over-hyped by the media and got everyone scared, actually before we got it i was quite worried about it but now we've had it and the media hype has died down a bit i'm not overly worried anymore.

Now if there was a possibility of actually turning into pigs...........then my opinion would most definitely change lol

Of course if people with more serious underlying conditions has it then by all means they should be the ones being vaccinated.