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plans for mass vaccination at schools in autumn

248 replies

pofacedandproud · 07/08/2009 15:12

here

How do people feel about this?

OP posts:
stuffitlllama · 08/08/2009 19:38

I have found it very difficult to find any other than maverick sources for the clam that squalene will be in the GSK vaccine.

however here's one

foxinsocks · 08/08/2009 19:43

yes, nothing is 100% safe, that's about all we know for sure!

if I had autoimmune problems in my family, I would think v hard about it tbh.

other than that, am quite happy for my lot to be vaccinated (though obv, we have to watch out for the allergies grr).

PrefetParfait · 08/08/2009 21:23

Don't worry about the name BadKitten (tis still my BaSTille day name [oops]).

Oh and mercury (i.e. mercury) is an adjuvant, it may have preserving properties too - but irt is definately a preservative.

I honestly don't knopw of many vaccines don't have an adjuvant (be it alum, mercury, freunds, emulsion....) vaccines are pretty ineffective without.

I will seee if I have time to look up squalene tomorrow (when the effects of alcohol have worn off) [grin[

bootontheotherfoot · 08/08/2009 23:08

I won't but I'm sure lots of people will be prepared to be the first guinea pigs with all the scare mongering going on about the swine flu.

I'd love to know what exactly is in the vaccine.

A list like you have for nutritional values in food, that, would be interesting to research. I like doing that with ingredients in food I can't pronounce. Yes I am strange you find some very weird things in 'food' that have no place being there. No wonder our health is deteriorating. Sorry going off topic!

Now then new vaccines.... pofacedandproud hit the spot.

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 03:17

A 57-member World Health Organization (WHO) panel concluded in early June that the effects of adjuvants on young children and women in the early stages of pregnancy required further study.

The panel also noted that there were no clinical experiences that made it possible to assess the risks and benefits of adjuvanted and non-adjuvanted H1N1 vaccines.

an in depth look here

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 07:34

Very interesting reading about squalene. I have learned a lot.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 09/08/2009 07:50

Feeling fresh and bright this morning Prefet?

PrefetParfait · 09/08/2009 09:04

Morning bad kitten...feeling fine. I have just re-read that pile of drivel I posted last night....of course the biggest mistake was that it should have read mecury (i.e. THERMOSIL)!

Off to research Squalene....and I think I had better put my pre-Bastille prefect badge back on

PerfectPrefect · 09/08/2009 10:20

OK. Limited research on Squalene....my interpretation.

Link 1
Concludes that squalene is a natural product. We eat it daily. We make it daily (in quite large amounts as it is a precursor to cholesterol and a number of steroids and hormones essential for us to function). It also says that many members of the public have low levels of anti-squalene ABs even if they have never been exposed to squalene in an adjuvant. Therefore Squalene is inherantly safe for the body. The question is therefore does shoving it up your but with an antigen do anything different.

In this same paper there is a look at the so caled anti-squalene antibodies which were attributed to gulf war syndrome mentioned earlier. I know that the research is carried out by Novartis, but it is in a peer reviewed journal - meaning that the data has been scrutinised by INDEPENDANT experts. The data they present looks rigerous in concluding that the MF59 (which is v v similar to AS03 according to one of Lama's links) does not induce an immune response to teh adjuvant. There is also a paragraph at the beginning offering citations concluding that the Gulf War links to squalene have been rejected.

link 2 originally posted by Llama
This link is published by teh WHO. It concludes that the evidence presented satisfies safety requirements, at least in an adult population, and the limited data available in children appears to be similar to that seen in adults. Link 1 says that vaccines containing MF59 have been given to children as young as 1 day with no safety concerns raised - although there are no numbers and I can't access the original citation.

link 3 (again originally posted by Llama)
This is the clinical data which supports the GSK vaccine which will be receiving (or at least the mock vaccine which is considered comparable to the one "we" will recieve).
In this link there is a table. The important numbers on this table are SPR - which is an indication of how many people are now considered immune. Without the adjuvant 18% are immune. With the adjuvant 95% are immune. That is WHY the adjuvant is there.

link 4 this is an interesting read too. It has more data from teh Prepandrix trials (which is the mock vaccine). In this paper they give more data from the Prepandrix trials. As has been pointed out an adjuvant is a mechanism to use lower doses of vaccine and make stocks go further (although IMO it has biological value too). At the highest dose of vaccine without AS03 the maximum rate of protection was 43% in the Vietmanese group. At the LOWEST dose of vaccine with adjuvant they managed to acheive 84% protection. Agains demonstrating the value of AS03.

this is the most important bit for those that want to skip to teh chase
Anyway I must go and entertain small people. My conclusions and opinions....having spent an hour or so researching squalene and AS03, it is my honest opinion that this is something that sceptics have whipped up to have something to talk about. Vaccines containing AS03 are officially considered safe, and have been approved by the regulatory agents. The data presented looks rigerous to me. The data supporting their benefit is very rigerous. TBH emulsions have a long history of use as an adjuvant. Many people will never have heard of an adjuvant or squalene 6 months ago and would never have given it a second thought. However, the research that I have done does have gaps. I have seen no original data from peadiactric groups (although I can see that there is some, I just can't see teh data or how thorough it is). I also haven't seen any data for longer term effects (beyond 51 days), however, squalene containing vaccines have been on hte market since 1997 with (I believe) no long term adverse events reported - again mostly administered to older age-groups as it is one of the seasonal flu vaccines. So I may be cautious about it's use in peadiactrics, given that on the whole Swine flu is relatively mild ATM. But I am not making a decision yet.

link 5 looks like a pretty good impartial, easy reading summary about squalene.

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 11:11

Prefect that really is a lot of work you've done there. Well done and thank you.

I was surprised reading up about squalene.. I had the "toxic, dangerous" presumption in my head. However -- in addition to what Pret says I discovered it is also sold as a health product!

However I don't think we should ignore the investigations into squalene triggered by sufferers of Gulf War Syndrome (a combination of serious immune disorders).

One blind study attempted to determine whether the presence of antibodies to squalene correlates with the presence of signs and symptoms of GWS. It found that the substantial majority (95%) of overtly ill deployed GWS patients had antibodies to squalene. They were also present in all the GWS patients who weren't deployed but WERE immunized.

But none, not one, of the deployed Persian Gulf veterans NOT showing signs and symptoms of GWS have antibodies to squalene.

In conclusion, the majority of symptomatic GWS patients had serum antibodies to squalene.

So that's the other side.

PerfectPrefect · 09/08/2009 11:34

I have just realised that for some (totally random) reason link 1 is about something totally different which I have not clicked on since yesterday.

here is link 1.

If you read this you will see that the GWS data is seriously flawed - in that the vaccines claimed to contain Sqalene didn't; there are technical flaws in the way they collected the data; and it has been acknowledged by the institute of medicine and the WHO that the results are "inconclusive".

If you read that paper you will also see that most individuals have anti-bodies to squalene whether or not they have ever been given a squalene containing vaccine, which further suggests that the GWS studies are flawed.

I for one am not reading too much into the GWS story, although I have not been able to access the original GWS papers to draw my own conclusions (yet).

PerfectPrefect · 09/08/2009 11:34

P.S. I am also Pret!

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 12:06

Good link I've read the top of it.. not the rest yet.. but very quickly what about the study subjects who didn't show anti-squalene antibodies. That runs counter to "most individuals have anti-bodies to squalene whether or not they have ever been given a squalene containing vaccine".

Sorry have quickly escaped a homework session and haven't time to read fully before tonight.

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 12:08

this is what I looked at

by the way on the right hand side you can see the ref to your study on MR59

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 12:08

how did I know you were pret.. i nearly called you pret before

anyway

humanities homework

PerfectPrefect · 09/08/2009 12:26

I am confused. I might not be pret. Is there another pret? I was PrefetParfait earlier and assumed that was who you were referring to as "Pret". Sorry if I was wrong.

That is the study which has been questioned. The methods that were used were not massively sensitive, and according to my "link 1" they failed to include appropriate negative controls - so raising concerns over the data they collected. With a Western blot (which I think is there method of data collection) it is possible to "manipulate" the exposure to give the result you want to give - especially if they are not including appropriate controls. I will be eager to get the full GWS paper (both of them) and check them out myself when I have more time. I am also very interested in getting access to teh letter to teh editor which is the primary contradiction of the Asa et. al. papers. I really need to have a look at their raw data to make more sense of it. But I would always trust a quantitative ELISA (in link 1) over a Western blot any day.

It also worries me that there isn't more publications on teh subject on the pub med database there are only 10 references for the search term "gulf war syndrome squalene" and even then many of them are not supporting the link between GWS and Squalene. If there really was any acceptance of this theory there would be hundreds of references on the pub med database.

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 12:38

Very interesting. I think one of the problems is going to official denial as usual that there could have been a problem, along with lack of funds for independent studies, probably as a direct result.

pofacedandproud · 09/08/2009 12:40

Let us know Perfect Prefect, when you get access to those papers, very interesting.

OP posts:
PerfectPrefect · 09/08/2009 12:48

If someone felt strongly enough about this, and were convinced by the data it would have been persued....especially as squalene continues to be used and has been present in a commercial vaccine since 1997 with no association with "GWS" symptoms.

pofacedandproud · 09/08/2009 13:07

i thought it was not licensed as an adjuvant in the States? Is that wrong?

OP posts:
PerfectPrefect · 09/08/2009 13:19

No I think that is correct (from what is probably 43rd hand sources).

The US is only 1 country though and it is licensed in many european countries, and I think Asia.

Ripeberry · 09/08/2009 13:39

I've just looked up Squalene oil and that by itself has convinced me NOT to have the injections for my kids.
As someone said, once it's in you can't get it out.
What is going to stop it fooling our bodies into attacking themselves?

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 13:53

Not really prefect -- a lot of people feel very strongly about this, in the same way they do about MMR and the infant vaccinations, but it doesn't mean the studies will be funded.

Remember that proof positive that vaccines are "to blame" for any of the conditions they've been accused of triggering would be utterly catastrophic for the pharmaceutical industry and for governments around the world who have mandated and underwritten immunisation. That research will be forestalled at any cost. Very often we see the phrases "lack of evidence" "no evidence to show" "very few studies in this area" and so on. It doesn't prove a negative.

Would also take issue with your comment about no association with GWS symptoms. The world is suffering a profound epidemic of auto immune conditions.

I would be very surprised if there was no link between vaccine uptake and the depressed immune state many seem to find themselves in.

I'd love to see a true study comparing vaccinated and non vaccinated populations.

stuffitlllama · 09/08/2009 13:54

Am not having a go by the way, but I see it differently. I think that what you have found is extremely interesting and you are darned conscientious!

Saggarmakersbottomknocker · 09/08/2009 13:55

Thanks for all the hard work going on here.

As the parent of a dd with complex heart disease and reduced lung function I'm reading and trying to make an informed decision(I'm keeping dd locked in the under stair cupboard in the meantime)

Can I just ask - does the usual winter flu jab contain Squalene? It may have been mentioned already and I've missed it.

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