MMR single vaccines just a bit of info please.

[leander]

I feel a bit nervous posting this as i dont want to start anymore arguments,but we got our app through for ds's mmr.We would prefer to give him the single vaccines but people keep saying they are not licensed and some say they are.I will go and talk to my hv about it but I thought the combined wisdom of mumsnet may be able to tell me more.

Hi Leander - I opted for single jabs for dd - we paid to have these at the Elstree Airdrome surgery in N.London. The cost was around £60 per jab. I believe the single vaccines came from Switzerland - anyway dd was fine afterwards. In my personal opinion the MMR is very low risk but not one I was prepared to take. HTH

We opted for single jabs for the same reason as Grommit - low risk of any one child experiencing complications, in my view - but not a risk I wanted to cope with.
It is true that the vaccines used by the clinics are not licensed for use in the UK but they are licensed for use in other developed countries such as Switzerland. Talk to your HV by all means but also contact the clinic/dr you would hope to go to for single jabs and ask them who made their vaccines and where they got them from. In my experience, the clinics are used to parents asking these questions and are very happy to answer them, also to explain about the licensing arrangements, which are jointly agreed between the DoH and the manufacturers.
Your HV, understandably, is likely to give you the approved DoH advice that the MMR is completely safe, and urge you to have the triple jab at your GP's surgery. None of ds' contemporaries had any problems with their immunisations, whether they went the single jab or the MMR route, I hope that reassures you a little.
Do a site search under MMR and you will see other threads where the issue has been discussed by us all in great depth! On many occasions...

leander- having an autistic ds1 believe me I have researched the mmr and single vaccines. Won't get into that one now!! Just to say that if you ask about the mumps you might hear some rubbish about the single vaccine causing meningitis. That particular strain is not used in this country (Paul Shattock who runs the autism research unit in Sunderland has checked with all clinics offering single mumps- they're all using the jeryl lyn (spelling?) strain which is the one they should be- if I remember corectly it's urabe which is dodgy) You can always double check with the clinic anyway. The jeryl lyn strain which is given as a single vaccine is exactly the same as the mumps component in the MMR.

TBH don't expect much from your hv. They have to stick to the government line despite the fact that several have told me off the record the MMR concerns them. There are good website out there. One with a HUGE number of articles is www.whale.to/vaccines.html Some of the articles are more reliable than others if you see what I mean, but it's a place to start!

We too have gone down the single vaccine route. Our vaccines came from Germany. I think if you use a clinic as reccomended by 'Jabs' here you should be OK. However, There appears to be a mumps vaccine shortage at the moment. - Something to do with the government? (maybe someone else can enlighten more) Anyway DS had the Rubella jab in September, Measles in November. The clinic we used advise at least 6 months between measles and mumps jabs, so are on a waiting list for mumps jabs. As a male, mumps can affect fertility if caught after the age of about seven. So we have until then to either await the shortage to improve or to catch the disease.

Its your child, you do what you think is right and yes your HV will talk you into MMR, your doctors surgery has to keep their MMR vaccination figures up. Sad I know.

Message withdrawn

Something my HV told me has made me decide not to have any 'booster' MMR jabs.
Basically she said that the booster is NOT a booster it's the same thing again because the jab only takes effect in 90% of the children who have it so it's given again to cover the other 10% of the children who it didn't work on.
So because of this I decided very soon after DS1 had his MMR not to have the 'booster'. Obviously there a 90% chance that the jab has worked so I'm not going to risk it by given it again.
BTW my DS2 is 19 months and he hasn't had the jabs in anyway yet as I keep changing my mind on how to do it.

Emma - then IMO it is pointless to have given your son the MMR in the first place. I think you can pay for a blood test to see whether or not your child is immune if you feel strongly about it. I don't know what the figures are for autism suddenly developing after the booster rather than the initial dose, but I have never heard of it being a problem. I am pro MMR although I completely understand why people worry about it, but I do think if you've made the decision to have the initial injection you may as well go ahead and have the booster - after all, he could well be one of the 10%.

Enid, apparently the blood test that tests for immunity of measles, mumps and rubella is not that sensitive, it just shows whether there is any immunity to the diseases (not how immune they are)

EmmaTMG - like you my DS has not yet had any vaccinations - I do not want to have the MMR but the clinics for single vaccines seem to be few and far between in Scotland. This worries me as I really do not want to do nothing. DS is now nearly 22months - does anyone know if the single vaccines are time limited?

Just a point on the licensing of the single vaccines - I asked the doctor we used for dd's single vaccines about this and he said the vaccines are licensed for use in this country but they are not licensed for production ie all the single vaccines have to be imported, mainly from Europe. He said that the government has recently banned a number of mumps vaccines from use due to a possible connection with meningitis, hence the current shortage.

For what it's worth, he's convinced that MMR will eventually have to be scrapped (he would think that wouldn't he?!) Who knows, but as others have said, we didn't want to take the small risk (particularly as dd already had significant developmental delay).

I have definitely read literature that says children can acquire autism after the pe-school booster even if they were OK after the first jab, so I don't think the case is proven that you would be OK on the booster if there were no problems after the original jab. I am in the same situation, I decided to go for the first jab and subsequently have developed doubts. I will be taking my child for the single vaccine when the time comes - the government should not dictate to parents.

SB34,
What was the problem with your ds after the mmr booster?

yep I know of several children who have undergone regression following the MMR booster subsequently diagnosed as autistic.

Paula- the antibody titres are a bit of a joke anyway. Main problem is that number of antibodies strangely enough don't seem to equate to immunity. It does give some idea of whether the vaccinations have done what they're meant to though (ie produced antibodies). The only way to tell whether you're immune is to find out that you're not when you catch a disease. Mind you I have a fairly good idea that DS2 has measles protection for approximately another 6 monthish . I had a good dose of measles as a kiddie so he'll have got protection from me- plus breastfeeding.

The governement makes me laugh with their "banning" of the single mumps vaccine as it causes meningitis. That strain isn't/wasn't used in the UK anyway. The single vaccine used in the UK clinics is and always has been the same one as is found in the MMR. A little bit of spin methinks. I would laugh heartily if I wasn't dealing with autism 24 hours a day.

jimjams - please don't take this the wrong way as I am genuinely interested, but do you really know several people whose kids became autistic after having the MMR booster? I only ask as this isn't something I have ever read about (not that I am particularly well read on the subject).

Just to say that my hv isn't completely convinced about the safety of the MMR either (thanks! just to add a bit more worry to my life).

Enid- I'm not offended at all. Glad you're interested. Do I know several? Not quite. I know one (my cousins little boy) but I know "of" several more. Reliably though. I subscribe to a magazone called "autism today" It was started by the parents of Billy Tommey who was the first child to receive secretin in the UK as a treatment for autism. There was a TV programme about him a few years ago. The magazine consits of articles by parents of autistic children. In there I have seen two (maybe three) articles/letters where the parents describe a catastrophic loss of skills following the booster. TBH I have no reason to doubt these parents. I think a regression at 4 would be hard to miss! I also think that Paul Shattock who runs the Autism Research Unit has come across a few cases, although don't quote me on that!

I'm pretty active in the UK autism community, and you do hear these cases occasionally. Most parent's don't relate thir children's autism to MMR, but the people that do (about 10%) tell quite a different story really. Also the children who are supposedly MMR damaged have different urinary profiles than those who weren't (look up Autism Research Unit Sunderland for articles on this- or type Paul Shattock into a search engine). Something I've always found interesting is that Gulf War Vets with Gulf War Syndrome have the same urinary profiles as MMR damaged children. I'm not sure how robust the data is on that- I know more research is needed- but interesting all the same. Oh hang on I forgot Gulf War Syndrome doesn't exist either does it, silly me. Hmm blood pressure raising I'm off for some red wine

I also had the MMR letter through yesterday...on ds first birthday!! They have made it for 2 weeks time when he will not be 13 months so needless to say I am cancelling it until he is older. Like Enid, I am interested to hear of actual cases when kids became autistic after having the MMR. I am also interest in hearing from people who HAVE had the MMR as mostly when I read threads on it the people who reply are the ones who haven't and I would like to hear from people who have as well.

futurity- I know people who's children regressed following MMR (mainly following first MMR but see my message below.) You're not going to find many on a Mumsnet board a) because they're aren't that many around (10%of autism cases) and b) they're going to be too busy dealing the s* of autism to spend much time on message boards.

I'd go and have a lok around the Autism Research Unit. They have set up a page on vaccination. I rate Paul Shattock highly.

Whops forgot to post the link

osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autism/vaccine.htm

hang on let me do the autism research unit link properly

futurity- just reread your message, I don't think health authorities read scientific papers- it's well documented that giving mmr too early makes it less likely to work. Especially the measles part. This is because there are too many maternal antibodies still floating around and they mop up the attenuated virus before the body has time to produce more antibodies. It's most likely to work if given after 18 monmths.

Futurity,

DS had MMR at 16 months. GP advised that any earlier would be too early, but we were near some outbreaks of measles, so best not to delay for too long either. Due to the debate having been going on for a few years now, I did do a bit of reading, and came to the view that in our particular circumstances there was little additional risk in having the MMR vs having 3 separate injections. This was based in part on data showing that any single immunisation could have an adverse reaction (though not necessarilly of an autistic nature, or as severe as some of those reported from MMR), and therefore three injections were not always safer than one. But we also considered our family history and DS's general state of health etc. Some of my close friends came to different decisions (one because of family history of Crohn's, one because of DS's own medical history, and one because she felt risks were too high). All the children are the same age as DS (22 months), and only one of them has had more than 1 of the single jabs yet, even though their parents originally intended them to have had them by now (difficulty in getting/keeping appts due to having to travel, health of child on the day etc).

With hindsight I am glad that DS had MMR. He had no reaction at all AFAIK, and it is over and done with until pre-school booster (when I have to make another decision!). It is not a straightforward area, and there is a lot of mistrust about the data available which doesn't help. Good luck with your decision, though your health authority does seem overkeen. Mine never even sent a letter!

Our daughter had MMR at about 16mo. I got home from the clinic, turned on the news to see a bulletin about a link with autism, I think. WOuld have been about 1998.

Anyway, I did sit down and think, 'Oh my god, what have I done' but wasn't much I could do about it then.

I was still breastfeeding then and she had no reaction to the jab at all.

She had a 'pre-school' booster last April when she was 5y4mo. We were a bit behind with jabs so she had MMR booster, DTP booster and polio in one afternoon. She had a series of reactions after that: some localised swelling at the site on her left arm, followed by a warm swelling/rash spreading out from that, but not all the way down the arm and when that disappeared a further rash started pretty much from where the last one had finished and went further down her arm. I was on the phone to NHS Direct pretty much every couple of days and they sent me a 'factsheet' of possible reactions (which I chucked out co it was just info downloaded from internet sites, not even their own sheet or the manaufacturers' vaccine inserts.

Futurity -- I'm glad you asked for the MMR-takers to reply! I always feel like we don't get heard enough, too.

I fully support anybody who wants single jabs; I wanted them, too, but my HV insisted that she wouldn't have liability protection if she administered them, and I wasn't bothered enough to travel to London to get the jabs.

My backup plan was to get the MMR for kids at 18 months old; my gut feeling was that this 1) gave his immune system additional time to mature, and that 2) it was more likely that the vacc would take; ie, maternal antibodies would be gone. Now I hear (on the Internet, so not a reliable source!) that 18 months is becoming the standard age in the USA for MMR, for precisely reason 2).

In the event, toddler1 had many colds and I began to think there would never be an illness-free day to get MMR, so I took him at 16 months when he happened to be well. I expect it really will be 18 months with toddler2, though.

What I personally believe is... The anecdotal evidence is compelling... but I am totally unconvinced otherwise about the proposed autism link. None of the epidemiological studies can prove a link. To me it seems like the risk of severe brain damage from catching measles must be a lot higher than any possible risk of autism from MMR.

Enid-I inderstand that it's your opinion but I found it abit harsh of you to say it was pointless getting the MMR done in the first place. Okay so he could be in the 10% that it didn't work on but then there is a very much higher chance ie, 90% that it has worked. I am not anti the triple jab and I don't think it actually causes autism but could trigger something that is already lying dormant. I admit I haven't read any research into it but this theory has come from a friend who worked with autisic children, one of which developed autism after the pre-school booster.
So this is why I'm not sure of the booster. However it is becoming more likely that my DS2 will have the triple jab.
I think I'm being a bit of a hypocrite there but I know what I mean....I hope you do too.

Thanks for all responses so far...it is good to hear both sides of the issue.

I will be cancelling the appointment as 12 1/2 months old is far to early and will do some more research but if I do go for MMR I will wait until he is at least 15 months old I think.