MMR single vaccines just a bit of info please.

[leander]

I feel a bit nervous posting this as i dont want to start anymore arguments,but we got our app through for ds's mmr.We would prefer to give him the single vaccines but people keep saying they are not licensed and some say they are.I will go and talk to my hv about it but I thought the combined wisdom of mumsnet may be able to tell me more.

Now I'm really confused. My DS had the measles jab at Elstree early last year, and I had booked him in for rubella in March. The articles which say the problem bathes were administered between June and December last year also stated that this was the period that the 2 whistleblowing doctors worked there. Does this mean that batches administered before and after they worked there were OK? Or just that these are the only batches that they knew where incorrectly done?

On the basis that (1) its probably a nothing story blown up by the press, and (2) having read Elstree's Q&A which said that they've tested 300 of the children whose parents were notified of the problem, and the level of non-immunity was no higher than you would expect with any measles vaccine, and (3) they would have now corrected any problems that there were, I was intending to keep our rubella appointment. Someone posted below that they have closed - is this right?

Does anyone know whether the problematic vaccines were measles only, or the others as well (a friend of mine had her son vaccinated there against rubella in November last year)?

What would you sue them for ?
What is the damage ?

It seems to me, that as a lawyer ( though not a litigation specialist ), in order for you to sue there has to be some damage incurred. Here we could be talking the cost of paying for another clinic to re-immunise your sons. Another possible strand would be emotional distress, though this doesn't seem a very strong possibility.

If ones child, whom you thought had been immunised, caught measles which affected them adversely then you could sue for damage. Though, if one knew that it was likely that the vaccine had been defective that would severly weaken ones case.

nqww- I think you're probably right about the press blowing it out of proportion- and as you said a fair proportion of measles vaccines don't work anyway. If they are still operating I would imagine they'll be extra cautious iykwim. When they immunise ask for the batch number and quiz them about storage instructions. When we had ds1 immunised against measles with a dr seyedi- he showed me that the vaccine was cold and wrote the lot number in the book.

kaz- i was wodering that as well. Partly because we have just discovered thayt ds1 probably has hearing loss - he is now 3.5, can't pronounce anything remotely correctly, has very few speech sounds- and I've been saying to every specialist we've seen over the last year and a half that he has a speech problem, ina addition to language delay. he's also autistic and I've basically been told I'm imagining it. Anyway after a year we finally got a new speech therpapist who listened to him speaking and found that the speech sounds that are missing correspond with the hearing tests he's failed. Everyone's been saying "sue" but I was under the impression that as there has been no finanacial loss it would be almost impossible- and how do you quantify as missed year and a half of speech - especially for an autistic child. I know it's affected him greatly (not being able to say what he wants to) but I don't beleive a financial value could be easily applied so I would imagine we can't sue.

I haven't read a single thing in the Press about the Elstree situation, having only seen it here. I read 2 broadsheets a day. Is it something the tabloids are going on about?

The Mail on Sunday has picked it up particularly, but there has been other coverage. See:

Kaz33 I agree there is no lost, but perhaps a small claim if you have your child tested and they are not immune to recover the cost of the test and the revaccination.

At any rate they are absolute scoundrels but nothing can be done. I think that having spoken to dh it would probably sadly be a waste of everyone's time and money.

JimJams, sorry to hear about your son. It must be very frustrating and upsetting for you.

Re the batch number, we have the batch number of dd's injection but it makes no difference as they've 'lost the records ' !!

I said I'd post the number for the Hemel Hempsted single vaccine clinic once I'd got hold of it and here it is 01442 261333, I've not managed to get through yet though... suppose they are mopping up from Elstree!

Our clinic (Desumo) has today been closed down due to not having a license for single vaccines (Who has?) Anyway DS (18 months) has had rubella and measles jabs and is due the mumps in a couple of months. I know the mumps vaccine is in short supply anyway, so what now? The government are recommending the MMR (Yes, thanks Mr Blair, just what we were trying to avoid in the first place!) We will NOT be taking them up with that kind offer. Anyway there is going to be chicken-pox added into the cocktail and then named the MMR-V, any child not vaccinated with this will not be able to attend school! - Looks like theres going to be alot of home tutored kiddies about.

Not be able to attend school? Are you sure? I know that's a common thing in US schools, but I think the media would have a field day if they tried to make it a rule here in State schools.

Furball- I don't think they'll get the not attending school thing through parliament. I know it happens in the States but the government tends to be more "interfering" there- and you can refuse on things like religious grounds. In France you supposedly need vaccination certificates but they'll accept homeopathic "vaccinations". I think they just want a piece of paper to file.

That would be ironic. We're not sending ds1 to school as the lea seem incapable of providing a suitable education for a (fully vaccinated) autistic child. Then we'd have to keep ds2 home as he hasn't had any vaccinations (because of his elder brother's autism). I can see some humour (and some letter writing) in that- lol.

Just a little more info I've found out for anyone that's interested:

Cocococo is the clinic you are posting in Hemel Hempstead the Breakspear clinic ? If it is I have checked this out and they are registered with the National Care Standards Commission.

Furball, totally with you on the MMR - when we have a good reason for not choosing it in the first place why would our minds be changed now ! Durr ! The reasons I have for not wanting dd to have it are still the same so not an option for us either.

This whole matter has been a disgrace and I have a number of friends who are complaining. I am going to complain because I don't think that Dr Pugh should be allowed to practise again. And I also think that clinics like his should not be allowed to take advantage of vulnerable parents in the way in which they have. If anyone else thinks that then please complain too. The more that complain hopefully the more notice they will take.

If you want to complain, you can write to June Thaine who is the National Care Standards Commission Manager - if you email [email protected] she will pass it on. Also you can complain about Dr Pugh to the General Medical Council. You need to quote Pugh's roll number which is 1576221 and write to:

GMC
Complaints Department
178 Great Portland Street
London
W1W 5JE

Yes sorry Tillysmummy and all the other Dr Pugh 'unfortunates' Where as in our case we hopefully were given a decent vaccination etc we know where we are - Even if it is not where we want to be, if you see what I mean?

I feel people who have had their children vaccinated with MMR are wondering what all the fuss we are making for wanting singles, and are now saying 'I told you so'

We all try and do our best for our children and I feel just because we made a decision to give what we believe to be the right choice, we are all now left scratching our heads wondering, what the blooming heck is going on.

I too made what I believed to be the best decision for my child and had her vaccinated with MMR. Part of that choice was based on the fact that the vaccine is licensed in this country & the single jabs aren't. If I had been tempted to go for single jabs, part of my decision-making process would have involved taking into account the fact that they aren't licensed here and are dispensed via practitioners who charge wildly-differing amounts of money (IMO some of them exploiting a worried group of parents).I personally wouldn't go as far as "I told you so" but I still feel comfortable with my own decision.

Dd was due to have her rubella jab on Sat at the Desumo clinic. She's already had her measles jab. WE got the letter this week saying they'd been closed down due to the licensing. I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person and I've tried to make informed decisions about dd's jabs. But I just don't know what to do now. I don't feel I can ask my GP or HV as they are obliged to toe the party line of going down the MMR route. Part of me thinks now that, given the choice all over again I might well have chosen the MMR. But now she's had one but the other 2 look in jeopardy, what do I do about it? She's also got her MMR appointment next week (the 4th time of them trying to get us to go!) I DO agree with vaccinations, but haven't been convinced yet of the safety of the MMR. If I now take her to have her MMR so that she's vaccinated and it's on top of her measles jab is this likely to have an adverse effect? HELP!

Leander; have you had your ds vaccined now?
Some single vaccines are not licensed in this country because the Government wants children to be vaccinated with the MMR and thus tries to make it as difficult as possible to get hold of single vaccines over here. I contacted several doctors/clinics (list available from "jabs" and all charged huge admin fees and fees for the vaccines and most could not even get hold of certain vaccines for months! In the end we had our dd vaccinated against measles on the continent. Much cheaper - though you have to pay for the travel costs. However, you could always combine it with a holiday over there...

Moomin: may be you find another doctor/clinic here:www.jabs.org.uk/ The also tell you about loopholes by which your doctor can give single vaccines:
"Some doctors are offering the single rubella vaccine first as it is licensed and available for any GP to give. This then opens one of the two loopholes mentioned. If the child has had the rubella injection he/she has technically started on a course of single dose vaccines so the doctor is then able, under the MCA's own rules, to order and administer the other two separately and with a time interval between.

Please note though that measles is considered the most serious of the three diseases measles, mumps and rubella. So perhaps should be considered first.

The term 'Medically indicated' or a similar phrase on the prescription allows access through the second loophole. This CAN be done under the free NHS system if your GP is willing to help. The chemist seeing this term on the prescription is allowed to order the single dose vaccine from the licensed importer. When the prescription is seen by the licensed importer it may be allowed, again, under the MCA's rules. The MCA has asked doctors to explain the medical reason by adding a note to the prescription but this could be seen as breaking patient confidentiality. The doctor may justify the term to him/herself in that the child may be left unvaccinated without the choice of single doses and 'it is better to offer something than nothing'.

If your GP wishes to check these loopholes ask him/her to contact the company licensed to import single measles and mumps vaccines into the UK. One of the companies is called IDIS (International Drug Information Services):

Telephone number: 0208 4100 700"

Hope this info is of use...

Moomin. Don't despair. I know it seems like a maze I have had the same problem. I too have tried to make the best decision for my dd. Only you can decide what you want to do. The options as I understand them are:-

1. Re vaccinate her with MMR - no risk, government recommend this but then they would !
2. Have her blood tested to see if she has immunity - if not re vaccinate singly - bear in mind blood tests can be difficult to perform on small people and also the government doesn't recommend this route because they cannot show level of immunity, only if they have it.
3. Have her re vaccinated anyway with measles. I have been told that there is no harm in doing this, if they have immunity they will fight it and if they don't they will develop it.
4. Leave it and take a chance on her having immunity.

I don't think you should feel pressured by your doctor or anyone else. We are going to see our GP on Friday to discuss the options. At the same time I have already booked her into the Breakspear clinic in Hemel Hempstead for another single measles in two weeks time (they are registered with the National Care Standards Commission) - we are going to see our doctor to see if they recommend a blood test or not. No other reason. We are not going to be pushed down the MMR route because we had very valid reasons for not choosing that in the first place hence our decision to go with the singles. A lot of friends I have that have had the same experience with the single vaccines and Elstree are now having MMR but my DH and I do not want to do this.

At the end of the day it is your choice. Your doc is there to offer advice and if you do not want MMR you should categorically tell them that. They must still give you advice for the health of your child and tell you the options.

It is a very difficult subject and every parent is right whether having MMR or Single. I don't talk about it with a lot of friends because we all have quite different opinions and are all right in our opinions. It is an individual choice. No-one should criticise anyone for their decision. The only reason the government won't administer single vaccines is the cost and the fact that they are worried parents wont complete the course.

Hope this helps a little.

Oh Moomin I'm in exactly the same situation as you. DS had his Measles at Elstree and is now due Mumps and Rubella and we're not even sure if the Measles was given correctly. I'm still trying to find somewhere to get a mouth swab done to check immunity levels - has anyone had any luck finding anywhere? I will absolutely not go down the MMR route so I'm feeling trapped in a corner.

Tillysmummy the number I gave below was for Breakspear but I still haven't managed to get through yet, despite calling every few days.

Just resurrecting this to see if anyone has managed to track down the mumps vaccine at any of the clinics? I have been fobbed off by Breaskpear, their batch keeps getting stopped at customs and being destroyed and they keep saying in a few months, in a few months. I have phoned a few other clinics to be told they are not expecting to get Mumps in this year. I am really keen to complete DS course and get a blood test to check his immunity to all three and to see if the measles he had at Elstree is effective or not. Would be grateful for any advice.

ds has had his done at children's immunisation centre - mumps was scheduled for jan this year and they say they have no idea when they will get it.

about to book ds's single vaccines with direct health 2000
any comments - pos or neg!?

I am also waiting for the single mumps for ds, and have been since July. His appointment was for this Sunday but already been cancelled. Got a last minute call last month to say that had a few and we were top of the list, but had to turn it down as we were away on hoiday. Perhaps, there'll be a call later this week.
I just want the whole thing finished.

I'm not worried about mumps. It's not a serious illness in young children. I do think it is a shame that gmt interference is stopping this vaccine getting to children though.

we went through Direct Health 2000 and they were great! We are still waiting for the mumps one (since last November), and have been told that she is on the top of the list when they get supplies..........

I am still waiting to get dd the Mumps vaccine from the Breakspeare - she has had a single Measles here. She was originally 'immunised' at the Elstree clinic and she had a blood test at the Breakspeare - she was not immune to Mumps or Measles but was immune to Rubella