MMR single vaccines just a bit of info please.

[leander]

I feel a bit nervous posting this as i dont want to start anymore arguments,but we got our app through for ds's mmr.We would prefer to give him the single vaccines but people keep saying they are not licensed and some say they are.I will go and talk to my hv about it but I thought the combined wisdom of mumsnet may be able to tell me more.

zebra the epidemeological studies will never prove a link. These type of studies are incredibly weak at trying to find a problem of this type (remember it is likely that only approx 10% of autism is caused by MMr- numbers are small). Personally I think some of the best evidence is coming out of the Autism Research Unit. They are quite careful in their claims, but I have noticed they are getting more confident as they are getting more data. Also the research finding vaccine strain mealses in the brain is farily compelling evidence (and enough to challenege the manufacturers in court)

FWIW autism is an autioimmune disorder. Autistic kids have notorioulsy bizarre immune systmes. Family histories are generally full of autoimmune conditions. Is it so unlikely that given a genetic predisposition for autism that vaccinations are going to be a bit risky for these kids? Could be MMR that triggers could be something else. Quite frankly though the parents that I know that blame the MMR tell a totally different story to those of us that don't (and I do blame certain immune assualts but won;t go into that). The arrogance of the medical profession in ignoring this is incredible. Mind you I've tried to explain things about my son to the paediatricians and specch and language therapists etc and it it like talking to a brick wall. It doesn't surprise me- they see what thy want to see.

I would say thet the risk MMR poses to any individual child is small. if your child has never shown any sign of allergy, and there is no autoimmune disease in your family (no type I diabetes, MS, arthritis, crohn etc etc) then the risk is probably negligble. If there is then read everything (reliable) that you can lay your hand on. If you read the original research (including the epidemeological studies) then it talks for itself really. Read Paul Shattock's research and try to catch him on the radio- he works on the ground a lot so to speak.

Another person who has worked a lot in the area is Dr Natacha Campbell McBride. She works in Cambridge and is a nutritionist for children with learning diasbilities. She is medically qualified and also hold postgrad degree in neorology. I've read her views on the role of vaccinations in the devlopment of autism in the Autism File. I found this article particularly interesting as her possible route to autism decribes exactly what I believe happened to my son. (I amlmost passed out when I read it- it was what I had been saying for the previous year- there in black and white).

So in summary- read all the reserch you can. Don't read press reports (they're often inaccurate)- read the research, or articles written by the researchers themsleves. If I sound stroppy about this -yes I am. I have no idea whether MMR can cause a link, but I do know what living with autism is like and the consequences if it does, and whilst the jury is out the vaccinations should be as well.

Jimjams, I am sorry to hear you have had problems talking to paeds etc and they are not listening to you. It makes me realise just how fortunate I must be to have landed our consultant.

As you may know from other threads, DD has an extrmeely rare choronic condition (incidence 1 in 300k to 1 in 1m, depending which research you read) and I have always been treated with the utmost respect by the medical staff I have come across who are more than willing to discuss the research with me. Even our GP has said 'This is one of those cases where we'll be learning from you'.

I agree absolutely about reading research - I do regular checks on pubmed to pick up any newly published articles about DD's condition.

Obviously I would love to find out why she has developed this but it's unlikely we will do since there are so few people with it. The internet group we belong to will, every so often, have a poll on trying to find similar case histories but they aren't often successful - it often looks like people clutching at straws as they are so desperate for an answer. I won't poo-poo it though - ISTR hearing that the thalidomide link was only discovered because of a letter that appeared in the BMJ which elicited a large response.

As long as people keep talking and keep trying and keep an open mind, we'll find the answers for all these things eventually. JMO.

Jimjams, in was really interested in what you wrote. Although I haven't looked into this extensively dd is 11 mo, it now makes a little more sense (?) if it is more likely to effect children with a susceptibility to immunity problems. Thus, a small percentage of children are at greater risk, perhaps due to genetic markers. It's given me more to think about, thanks

SueW, just followed your link to pubmed, some really interesting stuff there, thanks

Hi SueW- I think your last sentence sums it up really. I get so annoyed that any research that shows any problem with any vaccaintion seems to be quickly ridiculed, before proper research is carried out. It's not just autism either- we should be worried about the rising cases of type I diabetes, asthma eczema etc etc. It may not be vaccinations at all, other things have changed, for example the mineral status of food has changed dramatically over the last 40 years- maybe a missing trace element is causing problems- who knows, but these potential causes should be taken seriously and investigated properly.

I'm glad you've found a good paediatrician. OuUrs is good for diagnosis- he doesn't beat around the bush, but he is very very behind with treatments for autism. It's a shame as there is a lot that can help these days. My GP did refer us to a dietician, but she just gave me incorrect advice and told me that DS1 couldn't be autistic as he put his toys away when I told him to (!!!) From comparing stories with other people what seems to happen with autism is that any other difficulty is lumped in with "what do you expect he/she is autistic?". So for example my son is autistic but he also has a specific speech problem- almost impossible to get help with- so I'm doing that speech therapy myself. It can be worse though, a friend of mine has been telling people for years that her (autistic) daughter has other problems with pain in her joints and movement etc (actually perfectly obvious first time you see her). She was told "oh all autistic children are dyspraxic". Guess what they've just discovered she has arthritis (her mother has been trying to tell them that for the last 4 years- it's in her family). The frightening thing is we both represent educated parents- with degrees and PhD's (we should fit into their world so to speak) and if we're not listened to, who is?

allatsea - I think that's what it boils down to really. I also expect that these children have a problem with detoxifying heavy metals as well. Maybe a missing enzyme somewhere - who knows? A lot of the children I have met have had frighteningly high lead levelsfor example- DS1 has his blood test for lead levels on Thursday- agghhhh- not looking forward to that! This is another reaosn why I think thimerosil in vaccines should be investigated properly (not in MMR but is in most brands of DTP). I expect that most children cope very well with the levels of mercury present- but what if a few don't? It speaks volumes in my mind that in Australia children under 5 do not receive thimerosil in their routine childhood vaccines.

I do think there are some people out there who will 'blame' the MMR for autism as they cant see any other reason. My best friend's SIL has unfortunately got 2 autitic children. She is convinced that the MMR caused it, for the first child. But my bestF says that you could tell for months prior to the jag that there was something seriously wrong with the older girl. The younger also was obviously autistic from before one year old.
I think there are people who are looking for an explanation and will jump on MMR as they don't know about any other ideas.
For the record my dd has had MMR, and ds will, even though my brother is autistic.

I really shouldn't look at these MMR threads because they TOTALLY wind me up..but, I have to just add my 2p and say that as a 'scientist' I continually despair at this MMR debate. If you look at Dr Wakefields study (the only report saying MMR causes autism!)There is NO PROOF whatsoever.

Why are we all so willing to believe conspiracy theories, why don't we use our common sense!!! The increase in autism can be assigned to lots and lots of factors. MMR has been used in 60 countries over 10-20 years, that adds up to millions and millions of children vaccinated, If you look at the graph showing cases of autism over time, there should be a massive surge after MMR was introduced, but there isn't. That's it full stop.

sorry I haven't done a link to the graph or the plenty of valid research showing this, but its all on the web, and so someone will tell me its all made up by some secret taskforce in Westminster who want to hurt our children!!!!

Did you see the article on watchdog about single vaccines. The company they talked to that does them (can't remember its name) hires Saatchi and Saatchi to advertise for them and promote single vaccines!

Since when are S and S a medical firm?

Why isn't anyone up in arms about that?

My DS's had the MMR and the meninjitus(awful spelling), at the same time. I was a little worried, but the GP provided info. in advance, as I was warned they would all be given in one go.
She told me , that there had been good results, as it gave their immune system a real boost.
My boys go to in day nursery and until then, had had every thing under the sun(most childrens illnesses), also constant colds etc., but, I have to admit that since the jabs( about 12 months ago), they have hardly missed a day.

Lil, I have a friend who has a place in Italy and she tells me they're up-in-arms over there over the safety of single vaccines...
Couldn't agree with you more re: Wakefield.

Yep - in our house dh says Wakefield then spits!

susanmt, him & the Daily Mail!

I have to say, JimJams doesn't sound like a crazed conspiracy theorist myself. It seems a shame to put down anyone who has doubts about MMR in that way. She says herself that she thinks that vaccinations may be implicated in a very small number of cases of autism, for complex reasons, and as an educated and active mother of an autistic child, I think her responses do deserve some respect.

aloha, didn't mean to dismiss out of turn jimjam's comments/experiences - I hadn't read through the full thread..let's face it, there have been so many of these MMR threads in the not-too-distant past...
Certain branches of the media do distort 'the facts' and play on the fears of us parents. The theory about a small number of children's immune systems being affected (because of a genetic predisposition) could prove correct, but the work just isn't there...Wakefield couldn't even replicate his own results. sorry Jimjams if you felt my response was flippant, it wasn't meant maliciously, nor was it directed at you.

Actually, I think my own post was over censorious. I do beleive that for the huge majority of children MMR and all other vaccinations are safe. However, it is known that some children do suffer catastrophic reactions to vaccination - not just MMR by any means. It is a very small number, but I do think it's worth finding out why.

Re Jimjams, I certainly respect her views and she actually said 'I have no idea whether MMR can cause a link'. She's being honest!

I'm not looking form pity here..but I do have a ill child, and the doctors still don't know what causes it. There's no cure and I regularly scare myself with the outcome of it all. I completely understand why parents with autistic children are quick to jump on the nearest theory bandwagon. There are times when I would blame the tap water or willingly see a witch doctor or feed my baby eye of newt, if someone told me it would cure her. But back to in my more rational moments I know this is desperation and my need for an explanation of the inexplicable. I'm sure its no different for conditions such as autism?

I have an open mind about the general safety of the MMR, but I do think it can cause problems for a minority of children. After reading Jimjams' interesting posts, I now feel much clearer about why these problems might arise, and which families might be more at risk. Thanks for the info, Jimjams, and for the link to the good work being done at Sunderland.

lil - as a scinetist educated to Phd level (genetics) these debates always wind me up as well. There is plenty of evidence suggesting that the MMR may be a factor for some autistic children. Not all, some. A good link provided by the ever amusing Paul Shattock is here. Describes the problems with epidemeological studies. If you look at the pro- MMR papers the data is not good!. For example Taylor et al (1999 if I remember correctly) says that his data shows no link between increasing incidence of autism and introduction of MMR- when his graph shows exactly that. He also states in the conclusions something like "this does not rule out the possibility that some children may suffer a rare idiosyncratic response to the MMR" (not an actual quote- as I can't find th paper0- but near enough). Isn't THAT what we are meant to be looking for???? A rare idiosyncratic repsonse. Any idiot knows that the MMR is safe for the majority of children.

As a mother of an autistic child- I have absolutely no wish to blame someone for my child's autism (I'm not some bitter and twisted old crone and autism is part of my child- and produces some good things as well). However as the mother of a normally developing child I would like to ensure that he does not head down the same route (becuase life is a damm site easier without autism). Therefore I would like research done on all possible triggers of autism (and I suspect there are several). Until the politicians understand that autism is not like diabtes- it is just a collection of behaviours- probably with many different causes- we are not going to get very far.

BTW Wakefield only ever said "uh oh my research shows that there may be cause for concern for some children- why don't we play it safe and provide single vaccines until we know more". Nothing else. And for that he gets hounded out of the country!

I am not a conspiracy theorist!!! But I get absolutely furious that the government spend three million on trying to force parents to have the MMR when they don't know (and they don't) whether it may be a factor in some children developing autism.

Anyway have to go and do some speech therpay with my son as the good old department of health seems to have forgotten to train any.

My view remains: The research does not show either way. Remember all vaccinations carry some risk of side effects. Just don't believe the spin coming out of Downing Street- read the original research yourself and decide what has been asked in that paper. A good laugh if you have the time is to type something like "MMR- statisticians statistics" or something like that into a search engine - you usually find a bunch of statisticians killing themselves laughing over the latest paper supposedly "proving" the safety of the MMR.

Righto I'm away (and I didn't even mention that it's worth checking out how many of these scientists are paid by the drugs comapies ).

Jimjams, actually Wakefield provided no proof that single vaccines are any safer - he also said we should play it safe applying single vaccines ONE YEAR between each, to avoid problems.

How many mothers are doing that? how many private health clinics are promoting that? I think not at £60 a shot!!!!!

And since the cases of autism possibly due to MMR, are rarer than the historical number of potential deaths from measles, doesn't that mean we should take the MMR vaccine? the anti-MMR seem to be saying that we should take the greater risk of our child dying from measel than getting autism. That just doesn't make sense.

And as for scientists being paid by drug companies... as you're a scientist would you change your results for your employers???? My colleagues write papers for tobacco firms and they don't lie, why should they? they only get pais £20k a year!! Maybe the drugs companies distort the truth, or the scientists get it wrong but your last sentence screams conspiracy!!!

I'm confused about something here with the MMR/single vaccine argument - I ought to say ds had MMR, no problems. Since most of the argument for MMR causing autism, comes from the evidence of measles found in gut or brain, surely that would argue against a measles single vaccine too.

I understand the argument that says the immune system can't deal with 3 vaccines at once, but I believe that the three viruses are released at different times with the MMR anyway, thereby making it similar to single vaccines anyway. So if it is really the measles that may cause the problem, why should single vaccines be any safer?

I wondered that, musica. I also wondered whether it was the measles virus itself that triggered for some people - whether the delivery was vaccination by MMR, single vaccine or by catching the virus - would explain why there wasn't a marked increase after the introduction of MMR. We deliberated for a while but I was quite ill with measles as a child so we opted for the MMR - no major ill effects and we will have the booster when it's time.

Exactly musica. There seem to be 2 arguments going on here that are switched and used by the anti-MMR lobby to suit.

If the measles vaccine can cause immune problems and cause autism, then having the single vaccine won't help AND there is no data to show that the single vaccines do not cause autism/immune problems either.

There is an argument that the body can't cope with 3 diseases at once. But there's no proof of this. Especially when you think of the SIX diseases a baby has introduced at 6 weeks old. We are bombarded with bacteria and viruses every minute of the day and we cope. Just think how quickly a body decomposes when its immune system is off, as it were! This argument just doesn't have any validation either!

if the argument of 'overwhelming' the immature immune system rang true then why aren't people up in arms about the huge number of vaccines tiny babies get during the first few weeks of life? having spoken to many experts in infectious diseases about this, I feel very sceptical about claims made over MMR and feel the sale of single vaccines (they don't do it for love) is taking advantage of a vulnerable and frightened group of people.

Ok problem with giving three at once - the answer is found in nature. Catching measles and mumps in the same year of life increases the risk of developing guess what autism!! (i don't have the relevant papers to hand but they can be tracked down via the autism research unit). Another factor is actualy chickenpox. Cacthing chickenpox and mumps naturally in the same year increases the risk oif autism - as does catching chickenpox and measles (although that resukt wasn't significant). Interestingly the ARU has found quite a few of the parents had chikdren who had MMR and then were unfortunate enough to catch chickenpox a few weeks later. this would of course be a problem with the single measles vaccine as well.

DTP etc- well one big difference is that they are not all live vaccines. Actually personally I am up in arms about those as well, but I won't get sidetracked on that one.

LIl= we may be surrounded by many vacteria and viruses, but they're not all'out to get us" Ost are beneficial or have no effect. We're not bombarded with three of four childhood illnesses every minute of every day- it is very rare to get these illnesses in the same year.

The comment about the research funding was meant to be slightly tongue in cheek.

Anyway if MMR is so safe why do the MMR damaged children have the SAME urinary profiles as the gulf war vets. Someone answer me that and I'll go away.