MMR single vaccines just a bit of info please.

[leander]

I feel a bit nervous posting this as i dont want to start anymore arguments,but we got our app through for ds's mmr.We would prefer to give him the single vaccines but people keep saying they are not licensed and some say they are.I will go and talk to my hv about it but I thought the combined wisdom of mumsnet may be able to tell me more.

musica- the 3 viruses are not released at different time. The ill effects if any- are seen at different times which depend on the incubation period of the particular virus. The immune system will be kept busy from the moment of injection.

OK Jimjams, you answer your own question and tell us what the link is between MMR and gulf war syndrome..I have absolutely no idea, unless of course the soldiers were all given MMR incase of Saddam Hussein biological warfare using measles

..and Jimjams, if a virus is incubating then it isn't 'attacking' the body. The body doesn't recognise it, and is not defending its
self (e.g. rashes and temperature are not instant)so in effect the body is NOT reacting to all the virus from the minute of injection!!

I also read that an American study showed that a child's immune system can cope with up to 10,000 viruses in one go!

is that what the UN's weapons inspectors are looking for then? measles made me feel pretty sick, I remember it even through I was only 3.

(sorry, being facetious)

Hmm... I'm not convinced getting that many illnesses in one year is that unusual you know ... especially when groups of young children congregate together. There's one poor little mite in ds' nursery who had measles just a few days before her MMR was due so the vaccination was put back... then about a week before the revised date was due she got rubella. This last week she's been away with chickenpox! We're all waiting for her to get the mumps just to complete the range although I think she finally had the MMR in a rare well moment in between.

I know that example is a bit extreme, but I don't think it's that rare in non-vaccinated children to get them all at once like that.

Georgina you are making me think now. I reckon at nursery the common range in a year/season (winter) is cold, ear infection, another cold, conjunctivitis, gastroenteritis, yet another cold!!

Oops not forgetting chickenpox!!

I am very interested in Jimjam's points about how multiple illnesses increase the risk of autism and will look up the references. I went for the single vaccine route. No, I'm not completely convinced that it was necessary, but it couldn't do any harm, I felt (apart to my bank balance). As it is, he's had his measles jab, is due for his rubella, and I've not heard a peep from my GP/HV about MMR, so so much for the 'putting others at risk by not getting the MMR' lobby. My child is now far less likely to pass on a dangerous illness than he would if he had waited to be offered the MMR.

Lil- I'm afraid your A level Biology is a bit rusty. This page produced by Glaxo describes what happens during the measles incubation period.

I was not talking about coughs and colds or ear infections, I was talking abouth the classic childhood illnesses. The ARU page has been reorganised, so I can't find the stuff there but you can look up this page www.whale.to/v/mcv.html (for some reason it won't let me post as a link).

For those of you who are interested a useful page can be found here www.singlevaccines.com Again apologies but for some reason I can't post the link.
Georgina- no comment really as I don't know much more than what I read. It would be interesting to find out though.

The reference I made earlier to Gulf War syndrome referred to an earlier post of mine in the thread. The ARU has found interesting similarities between the urinary profiles of MMR damaged children and Gulf War vets with Gulf War syndrome. The work carried out at the ARU can be seen here www.osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autism/index.html (I have no idea what is going on with these links- but still.)

At the end of the day I think as parents we're dammed if we vaccinate and we're dammed if we don't. I do know people who describe a horrific sequence of events occurring in their child after the MMR. Who knows - maybe screaming constantly for a week following the jab, losing all words, starting to smear faeces and losing eye contact is a normal autistic regression. It certainly sounds different to the regression experienced by my son and his friends who's parents make no link with the MMR. As research by peer reviewed scientists has picked up differences in the physiology of these children I find this interesting. As I keep saying I have absolutely no idea whether MMR can cause autism but I think there is enough possibility for it to be considered properly. By properly- I mean proper physiological research on supposedly damaged children- comparing them to autistic children who are not MMR damaged as well as normally developing children. The physiology of autistic children is so off the wall that quite a few grant proposals could be created out of that.

All I have done in this debate is direct interested parties to reliable information. i haven't sent them to witchdocotr weekly or quack quarterly-mainly i have suggested people read current scientific research. If for some reason this research offends you then fine don't read it. I only post the links as I believe it might be of use to someone. If you don't want to read it then don't. At the end of the day it's up to each individual to decide what is best for their child. For most children MMR/single probably won't make much difference, but it might for a few. Take it or leave it.

Yes, sorry Jimjams - don't dispute the theory totally I just feel there must be something else maybe that's the trigger. I'm finding the discussion interesting scientifically although I know that's poor comfort to someone who has an autistic child. I hope I didn't sound too callous with the theorising.

No Georgina you didn't sound callous at all.

FWIW I believe that there are probably several triggers. One thing that's fairly certain though is that our children have strange iummune systems and slightly odd physiologies (actually scrap that- very odd). Other risk factors have been suggested such as neorodevelopmental delay (if your neurones are slow to myelinate- mature- it's more likely that things can go astray).

I'm not some raving anti-vaccination campaigner- it's just the way that the research is presented that makes me so mad. I would prefer to see all the facts given without spin so that parents could make an informed decision.

Away from autism for a moment. This Spring there was a lot of whooping cough around. I was quite concerned as my 4 month old DS2 had had a pretty major exposure to it (he was unvaccinated- and 4 months is a very dodgy age for whooping cough). I tried to find reliable info couldn't really- just the reassuring "your child will die" message. Anyway a few weeks after this I read in the New Scientist that there was a lot of whooping cough around this year, and that this was because whooping cough had evolved a new strain which wasn't protected by vaccination and had evolved due to vaccination. A few weeks after that I heard on the Radio that there was a lot of whooping cough around this year and that an outbreak in the Midlands had led to the department of health vaccinating an entire school. I can only assume that no one in the Department of Health actually reads the New Scientist.

I find this quite frightening. As another example take the new menigitis C vaccination. I think we're the only country using it- even Peltola who is very pro vaccination was dubious about it's worth. There is a fear that vaccinating against menigitis C will simply increase the number of menigitis B cases. Research is being carried out by a team at Oxford University into exactly this. As a parent of a baby- this concerns me as menigitis C is mainly confined to teenagers whereas B affects all age groups.

I would like to see clearer thinking about vaccinations. I would like to see their effectiveness constantly reviewed. All vaccinations carry a risk of side effects so it should be very clear that the risk of these is outweighed by the benefits. This may mean a rethink of the whole policy. Adding more and more vaccinations may not be the way to go, or at least it may not suit all children. At the very least we should be ensuring that if viruses are evolving to get round the vaccinations then the vaccinations should be evolving too.

For some reason I seem incapable of spelling meningitis tonight. There we go remembered both "n"s .

It's fascinating stuff - I actually did quite a bit of research recently on vaccinations - not for ds (although I researched for him when appropriate of course) but for me. I wanted to have the chickenpox vaccination as blood tests have proved I have no immunity to it and I wanted to get pregnant.

BMJ have actually stated that for use as part of pre-conceptual screening where a mother has no antibodies herself that it is actually very useful (and from my point of view far preferable to the blood products used if I was pregnant and became exposed to chickenpox). Weighing the pros and cons I considered it worth the risks of the vaccine to even have a few years immunity. But at the time my GP refused to let me have it until he'd spent the time researching plus the fact I'd have to wait a good few months after that to try to conceive I just gave up.

LOL I should have perservered - that was five months ago and nature had the last laugh because I haven't conceived yet and it would have been one less thing to worry about at a very stressful time in my life. C'est la vie.

I also find it interesting talking to a friend of mine who is an influenza epidemiologist - she's very pro the flu vaccinations (and funnily enough that's one I've never bothered with because the research I did just didn't convince me that the pros outweighed the cons - yet I'm an asthmatic and a prime candidate for vaccination).

Hmm, sorry, I've digressed considerably from the original thread topic. My apologies, leander!

Hmm Georgina- I think I'd agree with your risk analysis on the chickenpox vaccine.

This is exactly what I mean- I think a risk analysis should be made on an indivual basis (both individual person and individual vaccine). this could lead to several outcomes a) child has all vaccinations at normal times b) child has all vaccinations but more spaced out or at a later age (the timings seem a bit arbitary anyway- I checked with a friend in Japan and their vaccinations are far more spaced out) c)child has some vaccinations and not others. d)child has no vaccinations.

Obviously not many children would fit into the d) category- but some might and it should be there as a possibility.

I sympathise with the chickenpox actually- I was exposed to chickenpox when I was 32 weeks pregnant and hadn't had it- Luckily the blood test showed I had the antibodies so I must have made them without getting the disease, or had a very mild does which was missed. How long do you have to leave it before conceiving if you did have the vaccination?

I can't find all the documentation I collected now... but from memory there were two doses three months apart - obviously wouldn't be able to conceive between and I think another three months after that to be safe. I remember thinking that it would be six months anyway plus whatever deliberation time the GP needed - by that time I could be most of the way through a pregnancy! Well... not as it happens

MMR or single vaccines - a homepoath I know recommends a course of homeopathy before and after the jabs. You may need to suspend belief, but it can't do any harm, and if you're concerned about the vaccinations it might help putyour mind at rest. Hope that doesn't start any complementary medicine arguments - I'm not advocating anything, just passing on advice I was given.

and balancing quite nicely on the fence here I thought.

For those of you that are concerned about MMR because it is overloading the immature immune system, have your children had the triple antigen (diptheria, tetanus, pertussis)? If so, do you not think that these three vaccines would also be overloading the immune system or do you not do these vaccinations in the UK? I am constantly reading about MMR on Mumsnet but have not yet heard anyone objecting to the other multiple antigen vaccinations routinely given to our children (and at a much younger age than recommended for MMR). I am not trying to have a go at anyone here, I am genuinely interested in your opinions on this matter. Also interested in your opinions of vaccinating 3 day old babies for Hep B (followed by vaccinations at 2, 4 and 6 months to complete the course) If you are worried about overloading an immature immune system, an Australian baby following the vaccination schedule would be vaccinated for 6 diseases simultanesouly at 2 months of age (diptheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, haemophilius influenzae type B and hepatitis B)!

To be fair Chelle they are not all live vaccines (I believe the polio one is the only live one?) and the usual advice (for holiday vaccinations for example) is only to have one live vaccine at a time isn't it? As I understand it the MMR is a triple live vaccine.

Does anyone think that the way the whole single vaccines argument (in general - not this mumsnet thread in particular) has been portrayed is putting pressure on people who may not be able to afford it to pay for the single jabs?

A friend who is a single, unemployed mother (and before anyone jumps in to condemn, the situation wasn't of her making - her partner left her, their DS and the country, taking most of the moveable assets they had and leaving her to pay off joint debts) now finds herself in the situation where she's been bombarded with publicity re the safety of the MMR and how by paying for jabs she'd be keeping her DS safer. Yet there is no way she can afford to pay for single jabs, let alone travelling to get them. So now she has to make a choice between leaving her DS unvaccinated, "risking" the free MMR jab, and the single jabs which she can't afford. It just seems to me that so much of the (anti)MMR publicity has been portrayed in a way that will make people feel guilty if they do anything other than opt for private single jabs.

GeorginA re your posting a few back down the thread now, why would someone give their child the MMR when she has just had measles and rubella? Surely the ONLY point of the vaccine is to provide immunity to the child so she must have naturally gained this from having the diseases.

chelle- this has been discissed a bit further down the thread.

BTW another theoretical problem comes from giving the measles and mumps at the same time. Measles is an immune suppressant (hence the number of complications in wild measles) and mumps alters the permeability of the blood brain barrier. Could give measles access to the brain??? Maybe who knows? Some of these autistic children appear to have vaccine strain measles in brain tissue. What's it doing there? Who knows? The memebranes of autisitc children tend to be leaky anyway. Loads on that at the Autism Research Unit pages I posted earlier.

Again it's the same arguement about susceptibility. Most children will be fine with all these vaccinations, some will not. Which is OK providing it's not your child who is affected adversely.

CAM - I think if you're travelling to the US there are regulations that require proof that they've had the MMR vaccination.