MMR single vaccines just a bit of info please.

[leander]

I feel a bit nervous posting this as i dont want to start anymore arguments,but we got our app through for ds's mmr.We would prefer to give him the single vaccines but people keep saying they are not licensed and some say they are.I will go and talk to my hv about it but I thought the combined wisdom of mumsnet may be able to tell me more.

Gill - was it "what doctors don't tell you"?? They're not an anti MMR campaign. They are a publishing house. They do produce "the other side of the story" about all sorts of things ranging from the treatment of heart disease, to vaccinations, to the efficiency of different complementary therapies (and they're quite scathing about a lot of those). They certainly don't receive any money from the single vaccine manufacturers or clinics. They're money comes from selling books and their "what doctors don't tell you" subscription magazine. They have produced "the Vaccination Bible" with an MMR supplement. Actually I like that book- it is biased, but it gives proper scientific papers as references so you can actually check out the research yourself. They do argue against mass immunisation but using research papers, not kind of waving a crystal in the air iyswim. The MMR supplement was kind of similar to the one produced by private eye - but with more citations so it was easier to check the references.

Is this the company that promotes Vernon Coleman? Authour of the book 'How to stop your doctor killing you'?

Schools & day care in the USA: what exactly do they accept as proof of vacc? The little scrawls in the kids' red books doesn't look very convincing to me.... an issue because we talk sometimes about moving to USA.

2nd point -- I'll just throw out. I heard a story about a group of parents with autistic kids, autism they claimed had been vaccine-linked. As proof of pre-vaccine normal behaviour, the parents produced home-videos of their children before the vaccs.

Somebody sent these videos to child development experts and ask the experts to assess -- supposedly, the experts came back saying overwhelmingly that the children were exhibiting abnormal behaviour. Urban myth? Food for thought!?

quite possibly hmb- but be fair vernon coleman is a qualified dr- he has unorthodox views granted. Lets face it though a book with a title like that may sell- and that's their aim. It has no relevance to anything they have published re mmr.

True, That is a 'good' selling point, but to call the man iconoclastic is to undersell iconoclasm. His views on AIDs for example IIRC are way off target. Ie that AIDS is not caused by HIV. He is quite extreme in his views.

For example this is a quote from his own website on the link between birth sign and illness

'You may find it difficult to understand why astrological signs should have any influence on health (or, indeed, on anything else). I readily admit that I find it difficult to understand why there should be any such link.

But the results obtained in this study seem to leave no room for doubt: your date of birth, and the astrological sign under which you were born, do seem to have a significant impact on the type of diseases to which you are most likely to be susceptible.

My conclusion is simple: the astrology-health link is a significant one which we can no longer ignore. You can use the information in this report in the same way that you can use other personal health information'

As a scientist, what are your views on that? Because it sounds like a load of tost to this scientist

Sorry, Tosh

zebra- I think thats a couple of stories mixed together to produce the wrong one!

There was research carried out in the States by a Dr Teitelbaum on movement analysis of videos of children later diagnosed as autistic. He found that he could predict which children became autistic by the way in which they rolled over and crawled etc. This is obviously very early in infancy. I haven't heard any more from this lab for several years. This was conducted in the 90's. He hasn't ever looked at children who developed autism following MMR. In fact he didn't even compare autistic with non-autisitc children, and I don't know if he is still following up on this research.

ANother lab looked at videos of children on their first birthdays. Again no attempt was made to look at classically autistic vs MMR damaged children (although it would be interesting).

Next time you see an MMR damaged (pre MMR) video on tv- you can do a very simple test. If that child was pointing out things of interest (protodeclarative pointing) at say 15 months they were developing normally.

The parents taking the vaccine maufacturers to court were using video evidence.

A few years ago the CHAT test was intorduced (checklist for autism in toddlers). It's pretty good at picking up children of 18 months who are at risk of developing an autistic spectrum disorder. I heard but haven't verified that it was dropped becuase there were lots of extra children appearing on the books who'd passed CHAT and then had had MMR. Actually I have to say I don't beleive that. I think it is more likely that they dropped CHAT as they don't have the resources to deal with lots of extra 18 month olds coming into the system.

hmb- give me some respect please. At every stage of this debate I have referred people to work published by peer-reviewed scientists. I even said I preferred the wddty vaccination bible to the private eye as it was easier to check the citations (made to peer reviewed journals). I obviously think that Vernon Coleman has some strange views, but that doesn't meant that something written by a different author is wrong just because it's produced by the same publishing house (if it is I don't know). It also doesn't meant that everything the man has ever written is wrong, although I personally would tend to take his views with a pinch of salt (well make that a large salt cellar of salt- whatever). My worries about the MMR have some from reading the published reuslts of scientists not some guy who believes in astrology.

Actually hmb- he's put it in a slightly weird way but babies born in the summer are more likely to develop asthma etc (can't remember what winter babies get). Wouldn't put it down to star sign- but maybe season. In the same way that blood groups do affect the diseases you get (went to a lecture at Oxford on this). I seem to remember A is heart disease, not many cancers but you die from them. Whilst O is lots of cancers but you recover from them.

Sorry Jimjams, My comment was meant to be very tongue in cheek, and I don't doubt your scientific rigor at all. And I think you are right about that salt cellar He also has a vaccination booklet on his website, I'm not sure that it is the same one as you have been talking about. I suppose the point I was sort of making is that we all have to look carefully at the sources of info, and evaluate them taking into account the big picture. One of the criticisms made of the UK government (not without merit imho) is that following BSE it is hard for the general public to believe them when they say the MMR is OK to use (and I think that for the vast majority it is, as do you). By the same token, we should take all of Vernon Colmans pronouncements into mind when we evaluate his publishing on a subject.

And regarding births, the season may have an effect, but I doubt that being born on the cusp of Venus, or whatever, has any effect at all. The Blood group thing might well stand up, as blood group refects tissue type, which is a product of your genetic make up, which in turn may give a predisposition to a specific illness.

jimjams - to be honest I don't know, I don't know the mum that well and have only had the conversations in passing. If it comes up again though, I'll ask.

Ooo, know anymore about the blood groups?

hmb- vernon coleman had nothing to do with the vaccination bible!! Good god no! He has published quite a bit on vaccination, but I have to admit to never having read it (see I do stick to the reliable stuff). The vaccination bible basically discusses the main papers on each vaccination. As I said before it is biased, but it is properly referenced so can be followed up.

Quick extract about measles

"one study showed that even children with only a mild vitamin A deficiency were more at risk (Lancet, 1986 i 1169-73).......However giving vitamin A to children with measles can lessen the complications or chances of dying from the disease- even among African children (New Eng J of Med 1990; 232:160-4). In central Tanzania death rates were reduced by seven times among those children given vitamin A, particularly in children under 2 (BMJ 1987; 294: 294-6)."

Writing that out brought back horrible memories of writing up my PhD!!! No but hopefully that random extract shows you what I mean. Easy to check citations (I've checked some not all) and biased but backed with fact (IYSWIM). Sorry if I was a bit oversenisitive but I think that some people see me as some crazed anti-vaccination campaigner when I am not. I would like to be allowed to make my own informed decision on vaccination for ds2 - without tut tutting from people who haven't read even an sixteenth of the stuff I've read on this. I think that if anyone reads through the thread they would find that basically my arguements are balanced and that I do know my stuff. I do know more than the average GP- I know because I quizzed a couple on various (genuine) questions I had and they didn't even know what I was talking about. This is not to say that I think GP's should be doing more- I think generally they do as much as they can in often difficult circumstances- it's just to say that I'm well informed and therefore don't like being tut tutted at (which you weren't doing - I was being oversensitive). I get enough b*** tut tutting from the general public every time I go out with ds1. Now I'm soounding incoherent so I'll stop.

Tinker- the weird and wonderful book is by Peter D'Adamo (Eat right for your type or something)- but I have no idea how reliable that is. I did go to a lecture that mentioned blood goupings and disease but I will well and truly have lost my notes by now. I only remembered it because my dad's side were all blood group a and had loads of heart disease. I don't even remember who gave the lecture. I always think it was marianne Dawkins but that is totoally not her area (animal behaviour) so it obviously wasn't. So check out Peter D'adamo (available in a supermarket near you) but I have no idea how accurate he is.

cheers georgina

hmb- I think that bloody group A clots more easily than the others as well- which would tie in with heart disease etc. I have no idea where I've remebered that from though!

*blood not bloody!

Jimjams, Interesting stuff. And how I hate doing citations! The trouble with the MMR debate is that some of the anti people (like VC) are so 'out there' that it damages reasoned argument. I'm pro MMR myself, but I do see where you are coming from in the debate, and while I may disagree with you, I do respect the way you have come to your conclusions.

yes but hmb you have less at stake than me- and this is my arguement about some children. I think my family has demonstrated a pretty good predisposition to autoimmune disorders and autism. I can't just cross my fingers and think "oh it will be ok", because it may well not be for my children. ds2 seems to be developing normally, and I have no wish to go down the autism route again, so if there is evidence that suggests there could be a link I'm first in line to know about it. I don't want to be told "there there don't worry your pretty little head about it- tony says it's ok" because I'm the one who has to deal with autism on a daily basis. Well my family is. Do you remember the thread on "do you imagine your children when they're grown up". If you look there you will see I didn't contribute because quite frankly ds1 grown up scares the hell out of me. On good days I think "he will be able to live an independent life", but on bad days I think "oh god oh god oh god". So you see your risk/benefit ratio is totally different from mine, so you could be expected to reach a different decision.

Jimjams - did you hear the article on Radio4 this afternoon on 'Home planet' suggesting that autism may be caused by air pollution? There's a link on the BBC website - www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/science/homeplanet.shtml

Don't know if it's worth anything, but might be worth a look.

Thanks musica- there was an article on that in one of the papers this week- someone gave me a cutting. I haven't followed it up yet- interesting though as during my pregnancy with ds1 I was working in Westbourne Grove in London- where you can practically taste the petrol fumes

I think some of this could come down to an inability to detoxify poisons properly though. These children often have ridiculous levels of heavy metals etc. (Oh god blood test in 2 days- how much am i not looking forward to that- and the hospitals overun with Norwalk virus again so he'll probably come out vomiting!)

Interesting. When I was about 5/6 weeks pregnant with dd2, we had an oil leak in our garage and parts of the house were overwhelmed with fumes (we have oil central heating). I remember thinking at the time this wasn't too healthy but forgot it.

Now dd2 has "severe learning disabilities" (consultant's words), cause unknown. He rubbished the idea of the oil being anything to do with it, but who knows??

Jimjams, interesting what you say about your family having pre-disposition to certain disorder.

My family has never realy done diseases/conditions. DH's family however, specialise in rare diseases! His brother had when young some thyroid condition usually seen in middle-aged women; his mum died of stomach cancer, a type infrequently seen and when seen, it is usually in men! His sister developed diabetes in her early teens and went blind through it in her early twenties. Her son has a rare heart condition and has spent much of his life in and out of hospital with heart ops. And now our daughter has a rare condition too.

I don't really want to get into the MMR debate (have done previously, thanks!) but this is an interesting (polite too!) discussion and I have a slightly off topic question. My BIL has been banging on about blood group diets (i.e eating right for your blood group, not dieting per se) for ages and I have been rubbishing it as a load of c*. Considering what you know about blood groups and genetic predispositions etc do you think there's anything in it? Like I said I know it's off topic but if there is any scientific basis for these diets I feel slightly guilty for being so scathing! Only answer if you have time, it's an aside really

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