MMR injections

[Smellen]

Please could someone update me on the latest relating to the MMR jabs.

Is it now "safe" to let your baby have them? Is there any advantage/disadvantage to having the single jabs?

Sorry if this is another old chestnut.

We certainly have but if you look at the increasing numbers of STDs they are clearly not being used.

So what do you think is the cause of thre novel bowel disease found in autistic children Fairymum- no-one had disputed the existence of that. I'm all for weighing up alternative theories, I just haven't been given another one.I'm also interested in alternative theories of why vaccine strain measles virus is found in these children't gut and CSF and not in controls. But alternative theories need to be pit forward. I'm also interested in why autistic children are less likely than controls to develop rubella immunity following vaccination, and indeed why so many autistic children show immune system irregularities.

Of course the MMR is safe for most children- everyone knows that, but there is a mumsnetter whose child was hospitalised with encephalitis following MMR (and is now on the path to a dx of something), my friend's paed has told her he thinks MMR is responsible for triggering her son's severe autism (seizures - very long ones within hours- the hospital thought he was going to die) , do those children not exist or not matter because it's been shown to be safe for the vast majority? And what about their siblings? Presumably they are at risk of being susceptioble? Shouldn't they get an alternative to the MMR?

sorry no-one has disputed the existence of the bowel disease.

re optimum ages- optimum age for measles is between 2 and 9. (although after a year should be fine)

whopping cough- after a year (although my friend's kids had it earlier and were fine). Incidentrally there is a new strain of whooping cough doing the rounds now that isn't protected against by vaccination and evolved because of selection pressure from vaccination. That's from a new scientist report back in 2002 sometime- prob around May (I remember because I read it at the time 4 month old ds3 had been exposed to whooping cough). For some reason newborns don't have good protection against whooping cough even if therir mothers are immune

I'm interested in what happens when hib vaccine protection wears off- traditionally children to develop immunity to hib usually- without getting ill by around 5 years of age. Wonder if that will just hapen later.

OK I without wishing to get into the more general argument at the moment, I do have a specific question arising out of your last post jimjams.
If vaccine strain measles is found in the gut of hese autistic children AND it is concluded that this might have been/was the trigger for the autism (leaving aside the evidence for that conclusion) why then is it considered to be safe to use single vaccines? Has Andrew Wakefield ever explained his reasons for this recommendation? Because the vaccine strain will presumably be in the single vaccine too?
I had always presumed that the issue was to do with the combination of vaccines - but I haven't seen any scientific study or even explanation for this.

Fairy Mum where did you get the info that mum's breast milk immunity decreases at about 6 months? That is not the evidence as far as i know. Many mums start to wean or drop feeds at that point which is a different issue. Oh dear, I said i wasn't going to get into this!

he has explained this HC - perhaps` Jimjams [if she has the strength can explain it better than I can.

oh and Sandradee MMR is not as effective at 13 months - it is most effective at between 15 and 18 months.
Right. I am GOING!

There are(old and few- pre mmr issues) studies showing an increased risk of developing autism if you catch wild type mumps and meases I think in the same year. And other associations involving chickenpox.

The thing that everyonwe is forgetting is that MMR is safe for the vast majority of children- so look at the ones that regress not the normal ones. When you do look at autistic children (in genral) you find various immune system irregularities, especially in the part of the immune system that deals with viruses- to be very common. Autistic children incidentally commonly have leaky membranes. Many have the same urinary profiles as gulf war vets with GWS. I've seen them desacribed as caged canaries- an early warning systems because basically they are more susceptible than most.

I'd recommend reading LATHE'S Autism the Brain and the Environment for an overall review. He doesn't go into MMR much (he;s pro vax anyway- he developed the rabies jab), but he does say he thinks around 7% of autisitc children have autism triggered by the MMR. (The ARU estimate 10% so similar)

ruty, I know you are gone (he he) but I wasn't talking about breast milk. I thought babies were born with immunity against certain diseases (immunity passed through the placenta)if their mum had had the vaccine or had measles and it's this immunity which decreases around 6 months +
I think it's the same for chicken pox. I remember btoh mine had chicken pox while DS2 was tiny baby and he didn't get it.

Passive immunity should last a little longer than 6 months. Is generally more reliably present if the mother had the disease herself rather than the vax. Whooping cough is an exception for some reason good passive immunity does not seem to pass across the placenta.

immunity does not pass to child if a mother has been vaccinated. If it does [as someone has suggested once] it is extremely limited. Breast milk can confer immunity for much longer than 6 months, although it is not foolproof [neither is vaccination] Anyway, I'm not here am i?

Nor am I ruty. It's too stressful isn't it?

how I agree with you

Ruty, I am not sure weather to comment on the post written by you while you were not here. But I find it interesting what you are saying about immunity in breast milk. Perhaps Jimjams will know. Does breastmilk give good immunity against illnesses like measles? I know you are not really here either Jimjams, but.....

Definitely SM. so glad I'm not here.

yes it does FairyMum. I posted links to lots of research ages ago. Can't be *rsed to find it right now, especially as i'm not here and everything, but yes it does, to many illnesses from meningitis types [NOT foolproof and needs more research] to measles and mumps. Not WC as jimjams said. I am not complacent about breastfeeding curing all so please don't think I am.

and what advice do the gps now give regarding having mumps and chicken pox in the period leading up to the mmr? I suggested that this might be contra indicated and was told it was irrelevant although they had had them less than 6 weeks before hand..

Very interesting Ruty. I am still breastfeeding my 2 year-old and its a miracle-drink in my books, but never thought of it as protecting against measles, meningites etc before. What a great argument for breast feeding too!

Yes it does, and its always bothered me that ds3 wasn't bfed for longer. It is supposedly particularly good at protecting against hib (bfeed until 2 for that), but the research couldn't take into the account of daycare (maybe its actually daycare that's the risk and babies in daycare are less likely to be bfed).

Anecdotally bfed ds2 (until 2) didn't get chickenpox until he was 4- despite repeated exposures. Non bfed ds3 caught it at just over 12 months.

sandradee - I think that if my children had been in nursery from a young age then I would have worried, of course and I can completely understand why you would be if your child is in day care. However I worry more about the unknowns where vaccines are concerned. My dds are 4 and 2. The eldest has autism and the youngest is NT but I don't want to give her any jabs because I don't want to introduce any potential triggers (as she is perhaps genetically susceptible.) Dd1 had all the baby vaccines which I now regret because they contained thimerosal and I think I should have known about that first!) It's not that I don't believe my children could have a bad reaction to eg. measles, but I can't vaccinate them while the government continues to tell lies and treat us like idiots.

Also, the risk of whooping cough for a baby under 12 months would definitely worry me. But as the vaccine is risky and also not as effective as some I would not give it.

oh hcc- another issue is that a lot of autistic children appear to have some sort of problem processing vitamin A (in fact I know this is true of DS1- on retinol supplemtation all his visual stims disappeared- can't get the bloody stuff into him now though), so again may be the reason why they are particularly susceptible, because of course vitamin A is needed to fight measles effectively. If these children are struggling anyway - then why would you want to introduce 2 more live viruses at the same time? Of course is they're susceptible to the measles vacination because of problems with vitamin A then they'll be susceptible to the disease as well.

DS has a host of serious allergies one of which is egg. MMR was offered to us in Hosp where resuscitation equipment would be to hand should he react badly (MMR grown on protein similar to egg). He had had a very severe reaction to the DPT. You can understand why we hesitated. While we were pondering our options DS developed measles. A nasty dose ending up in hosp.

He caught it at Nursery. A few months later I got talking to the Mother whose son was the first case at Nursery. She hadn't vaccinated not because she had any specific concern but she was unconvinced generally about it's safety. I did not think this Mum had put my more vulnerable child at risk I thought she is a Mum like any other who is afraid of hurting her child. What annoyed me at the time was she didn't have access to the single jab which she would have had.

Incidentally she worked for the NAO and had seen many papers on the subject which had led to her concern.

Yes that's a very good point drosophila. I do think its a bloody cheek blaming Wakefield when the whole thing could have been avoided by continuing to provide the singles.

And I bloody wish they would provide single paediatric tetanus. I am not giving a 5 in 1- not with our family history- so now I can;t protect my children against tetanus until they're 10 (when they can get a single one).