Labour Party and gender

[Mobley52]

I've seen quite a few threads where people have said they would not vote for Labour because of their stance on gender.

Would somebody be able to explain in simple terms why this is please

Many thanks

Tell me you don't understand any of this without telling me you don't understand any of this.

How are you going to worry about threats to women when it's a mixed sex group and you must not provide anything for them or recognise them on a sexed basis in case a minority of men get upset?

Oh because it's actually nothing to do with the safety of women and children just bigoted nonsense.

And just to pick up on this:

A woman who needs a single sex space due to her sexuality, faith, culture, trauma etc is a 'bigot'? Is that what you're saying?

And the bloke who wants men in her space because of men's feelings and self actualisation and has no fucks to give about the realities for LGB, multi faith tolerance, multi culturalism or anything else when it gets in the way of men is not?

And the women victims (so far) of assault by males identifying into women's spaces are 'nonsense', are they?

Seriously?

Oh because it's actually nothing to do with the safety of women and children just bigoted nonsense.

Tell that to the women that Karen White raped. Or the rape victim that was called a liar because no males were apparently present on her hospital ward. I'm sure they'd be delighted to hear you call their trauma "bigoted nonsense."

As above, if I walk into a female dressing room and there is a man in there how the hell am I supposed to know whether they are a nice transwoman or a dangerous predator? I can't. The dangerous predator will be a tiny percentage of males but there is no way of telling which is which. The only way of keeping women safe in this way is to provide single sex spaces.

How many more women do you want to get raped in the spirit of #BeingKind?

Just wanted to say, i can find MN such a minefield when it comes to GC/Trans right debates but this was a really good comment from a 'GC' POV. So thank you for restoring my faith in these boards!

I mean, i'm always being told on these boards that its not about toilets but is about prisons, hospital wards and such so, surely this is a win?

Agreed, public toilets is unenforceable. It will just cause chaos for GNC Women who don't fit into the conventional standards. What are they going to do, ask to see proof? ask to see genitals? Doesn't that defeat the whole object of privacy and dignity? I shouldn't need to prove i'm a woman to use the bathroom in a shopping centre because i have big feet or I'm taller than the average woman or whatever else.

The first party to tell men to #bekind and welcome transwomen in their spaces has got my vote. Sadly can't see that happening any time soon.

Yes.

And it’s not only about the threat of assault. Women have a right to privacy and dignity as well. They don’t want voyeurs and exhibitionists strutting their stuff in spaces where women are changing or vulnerable.

Vulnerable women (eg disabled or bed-bound women) have a right to same sex intimate care and all patients have a right to know the sex of any doctor/nurse doing an intimate examination.

And women want to play safe, fair sport.

No.

You cannot evidence that. Point to a court case which backs it up

The Conservatives did their damndest along the way to finish the job but a handful suddenly woke up to the dangers of gender identity ideology at the 11th hour. Too little too late.

But better than nothing. And better than finishing the job & then some.

Great post, thank you. Some women have quite clearly been living in a cave.

The material reality of a man is not changed by how he perceives himself, and telling vulnerable women and girls to ignore their own discomfort to accommodate a man’s perception of himself, is gaslighting.

@UpThePankhurst and whenever Labour has been asked about this during the past week or so, they almost immediately start talking about trans people’s rights, rather than women’s rights.

Bridget Phillipson, the education shadow minister, appeared to say that if someone had a gender recognition certificate they could automatically use women’s facilities. And has been quick to immediately comment on trans people’s need for protection and rights.

Last night, in the debate, Starmer did the same, and made mistakes abut the Equality Act, seeming not to know how its being interpreted by service-providers.

One would expect the future schools minister to have addressed this issue, given that it affects children in schools so centrally.

They the their supporters keep also rolling out the same tropes, most marginalised group, toxic debate, too much heat, both sides of the argument.

Wes Streeting appears to be the only front-bencher who has bothered to actually engage with the debate and find out what those concerned about gender ideology are saying.

I'm accused on MN often to be a TRA yet i agree with single sex hospital wards, same sex care at places such as refuge centres or social care as a whole. Those make sense, right now the NHS fails to provide single sex wards due to systemic underfunding and horrific management. When the NHS is run better, we will not accept mixed sex wards. This year i was placed on a ward which was mixed sex, the poor staff weren't trying to endanger me but did not have the resources to care for me elsewhere. So i had to accept the ward allocation because i had to put a serious health condition first. Same with social care, right now it's a minimum wage job with a horribly high turnover so many places don't have the staff to be able to ensure same sex care which is not good enough.

The issue is those are all valid points, but there are vocal bigots masquerading within GC circles who genuinely do speak so disgustingly about TW that many get tarred with that same brush. And vice versa in regards to TRA, many agree with the points i made above but are labelled because another set of vocal bigots masquerade within the circles.

Unfortunately some don't seem to be able to call out the actual transphobes within the GC circles so they end up seeming complicit. Calls for Trans people to be not allowed to work because it's all a 'fetish' isn't helping is it?

@SquattingOtter you don’t ‘enforce’ most laws. There is a social contract where something is declared illegal and anyone breaching that is clearly breaking the law.

If it’s regarded as unacceptable for men to be in women’s spaces, then bad actors stand out and can be challenged.

At the moment the problem is also organisations rushing to declare all facilities gender neutral, believing that they have to in law, because it’s cheaper, and to get EDI brownie points.

In fairness, the phrasing is constantly about women's spaces = debates about TW access. Women's hour was inundated with similar. And if politicians didn't mention where they stood in regards to TW and women's spaces they'd be accused of avoiding the issue. Damned if they do, damned if they don't in that regard.

No party is immune from gender ideology. Its how the different parties deal with criticism of the ideology and policies to support the ideology, both from within the party and from the electorate.

Despite the multitude of safeguarding fails that have resulted from gender ideology, Starmer is refusing to acknowledge any problems with the GRC and EqA. In fact, his team have endorced men in womens public toilets.

Its his lack of safeguarding knowledge and his refusal to listen to an alternative view makes a government under him extremely dangerous for women and children.

Those make sense, right now the NHS fails to provide single sex wards due to systemic underfunding and horrific management. When the NHS is run better, we will not accept mixed sex wards.

Theres a difference between managing a ward where everyone acknowledges its mix sex and one that the staff are pretending its single sex when there's a man on the ward.

It was nothing to do with funding when nurses lied and said a patient couldn't have been raped because only women were on the ward.

Because I have a dc on the cusp of teenage years and hate to think that on top of all crazy things I already need to watch out and talk to him about, I now need to also explain that simple biology is no longer the accepted status quo.

Very well put

Neither is okay. My heart goes out to the poor woman who suffered in that and even more so for her treatment, that's one of the most revolting things I've encountered.

But the point stands, NHS wards should be single sex. Right now whether that is due to staff 'pretending' or just the massive issue of NHS underfunding and under resourced, it is not acceptable. Which is why fixing the NHS is one of my main priorities when it comes to voting. When it isn't being run into the ground, there are no excuses for failure in this regard.

Everyone needs to call out bigots within their 'echo chambers' because when these people are intentionally saying actual discriminatory and hateful things *we all are tarred with the same brush and it means people dismiss our points as invalid because of that.

Not really. Firstly it's cries of "we did this but only we can fix it". Just like Brexit. It's like trauma bonding. Secondly, Sunak is out on his arse the day after the GE and we could end u with any one of the numerous Tory TRAs in charge of the party.

The Tory government spins on a sixpence wrt this issue and they hate women.

They only care to "know what a woman is" so they know who to rape, under pay, push into poverty and ruin our healthcare.... Great i'm SO glad they are aware now.

@TooBigForMyBoots I'm not going to engage further than saying that I'll take a party which has begun to make changes in my favour & in which there's a chance (however large or small) that they will put this particular issue right, over one which is promising to destroy my rights & protections.

It seems a simple choice. Think of a two-horse race. Which horse will you put your money on? The one which is a bit tired but has a 50% chance of reaching the finishing line? Or the one which has just been taken round the back & shot?

It's a real puzzle how this system has worked to date.