Labour Party and gender

[Mobley52]

I've seen quite a few threads where people have said they would not vote for Labour because of their stance on gender.

Would somebody be able to explain in simple terms why this is please

Many thanks

No that’s the point I’m making.

A court case or example in the EqA allowing it for a refuge means nothing to a business. They are too far apart.

Starmer using it in the debate was wrong. The EqA is not clear or reassuring

@Alwaystired94 I’m sorry to repeat myself in posts but you don’t need to strictly enforce all laws; there is a social contract that means that bad actors stand out, which discourages people from flagrantly breaking the law.

When it’s not acceptable for men to use women’s spaces, men who do stand out. It’s then possible to alert the service-provider who can intervene.

ah yes, the age old laws stop people breaking them. haven't thought of that! It's working so well on our rape crimes, we must be at zero now right?

which discourages people from flagrantly breaking the law.
does it really? yet the amount of rapes/SA in public is horrifically high. The only biological males who would adhere to those laws are not the ones putting others in danger, So in this hypothetical situation, I'm now alone with a male in a bathroom and he knows he's breaking the law so i'll be able to get someone in to intervene? Because of course they'll let me pop out to grab someone.

So you think men could be a danger and you don’t want to change the law?

Seems illogical

@DryIce excellent post. Well said.

I’m sorry to repeat myself in posts but you don’t need to strictly enforce all laws;
I could not disagree more at all. The fact is right now rape is effectively decriminalised due to the lack of resources for investigating and prosecuting these crimes. If we were ensuring all rape crimes were effectively punished that would help reduce the sheer amount of this crime we have. Social contract means bugger all when right now the vast vast majority of them don't face any negative impact from the horrific crimes that are inflicted on us.
Social contract in a society where people make rape jokes? In a society that when women come forward about abuse they suffered they're called liars? In a society that tells young girls if a boy picks on you that means he likes you?

I'd agree if we had a better world, but we don't so i won't be putting mine and others safety in the hands of a 'social contract'. I'd much rather we just punished rapists personally.

No. As i've said the toilets/changing room side of it is unenforceable unlike other parts. Essential services like rape centres, hopsitals and social care can be enforced and SHOULD be.

I'm explaining how that particular situation does not help make anything safer. You are assuming that a 'social contract' will mean more than it will. Our society is too screwed against us for that.

If the social contract re racism breaks down and no people of particular ethnic groups are safe, and no prosecutions ever really work out - or if the social contract for trans people break down, and trans people are being harmed at the same rate that women are, with no prosecutions working out...?

Will everyone shrug and say nothing can be done then, or is it only women who don't matter enough to care about?

Life is not black and white. Thats why we have laws and judges

Let's see what they rule. My view, or your view, on "proportionate" is neither here not there.

I'd prefer to see this level of passion for getting rid of legal wriggle room in the "reasonable belief of consent" clause for rapes. Strangely posters are not as outraged by that one.

and yet many many people are horribly racist and hate crimes against POC happen often. I'm stating that relying on a 'social contract' isn't making us safer, what would make us safer is more effectively investigating and sentencing so we can remove the dangerous people from society. Many people don't speak up in moments, yes some do but many don't. So why should i put such faith in that contract when it is likely to not make me safer?

And we all know violence against women and girls in our society is seen as way more 'acceptable' to the general public because in a patriarchal society we're expected to be fine with it.

It’s worth doing

To not do it is madness

I want the law to change for women. It’s a major starting point.

We are here due to poorly thought out legislation like the GRA. It really counts to have that switch in our favour

Sorry, what do you mean? I think you've misunderstood the "social contract". It is that men in general don't use the ladies, even though it isnt illegal. Racism or sexism are nothing to do with it; I'm struggling to think of an equivalent "social contract" around race. Maybe you can give an example?

but again, how can the toilets/changing rooms be enforced? Are we hiring bouncers?

Hospitals, Prisons and Refuge/Rape centers can all be enforced and need to be. I've yet to hear a single practical way in which to enforce single sex changing rooms/toilets in public spaces - if someone has one I'd love to hear it but no, social contract is not a practical way of enforcing it.

and yet many many people are horribly racist and hate crimes against POC happen often. I'm stating that relying on a 'social contract' isn't making us safer, what would make us safer is more effectively investigating and sentencing so we can remove the dangerous people from society.

I agree. Relying on codes of acceptable behaviour doesn't work.

However there are groups that people get passionate about the needs of, and prosecutions that work and crimes that are more effectively dealt with, and should there be a radical step that increased issues and danger for those groups, it would be seen as wholly unacceptable and the actions you mention plus many more would be taken.

My point is that those groups never include women. Which is of course a case of 'spot the real oppressed group'. Actual oppression involves invisibility and not being regarded as important enough to deserve justice or protection, and crimes against them being okay really. Which is where we are.

i think they mean that someone acting in a manner (racist or misogynistic) will be called out by others who witness it and will step in if necessary. Which in theory, yes would be great. Do i trust the majority of our society to do the right thing? Hell no.

Just put the law in place

It changes the landscape. I want the law on my side for a change, not of men. And for other women and my dd

Why fight it? Who are you benefitting by not changing the law?

First answer nailed it.

There certainly are ways to re establish single sex spaces for women. It would involve, say:

Making very clear that a space labelled for female single sex meant female only. (The amount of panic and rage that appears on twitter from certain lobbies in regard to any suggestion of this demonstrates its power.)

Ensuring that single sex spaces are available and labelled alongside mixed sex provision, and where necessary the mens provision becomes the mixed sex one.

Holding a public awareness campaign about the vulnerabilities and needs of women for inclusion and access, particularly groups with protected characteristics.

Putting up notices about the importance of care and respect for all groups including women, making the expectation clear.

Empowering all business owners and public spaces to contact the police and report if a male has invaded a female only space and refuses to leave when inclusive provision for them is available. (Again, the mens should be made the mixed sex space if space does not permit a third space.)

Prosecutions if necessary for those very few male people who would determinedly and intentionally enter designated female only spaces with the intention of meeting their own needs and wishes at the expense of the women there needing a female only space.

Basically the TQ+ campaign strategy, but this time looking for solutions that would work equally for everyone as opposed to trampling one group underfoot.

That's because the Tories refused to make misogyny a Hate Crime. They hate women.

I have never stated women do not deserve protection, i've explained in great details why they do. I'm also explaining how the toilet side of the debate is not enforceable practically, not that i don't believe in the safety.

In reality, the only way to reduce the violent crimes against women is a more effective police force investigating, better resources for prosecution and stop giving non-sentences to dangerous people.

Making toilets single sex only ensures the biological males who enter it are out to do you harm if we aren't sorting out the rot in our society.

and yes women are 'actually oppressed' but there are other groups that are also oppressed. Women being an oppressed group doesn't mean other groups aren't also oppressed.

None of us can "change the law". Only the government can do that. And the fact is there are no credible proposals on the table to do it to achieve the outcomes you want either

Well said 👏

Well duh

because it doesn't provide any protections? Rape is against the law, does that mean it's been eradicated? No.

The 'law' can be on our side all it wants but it doesn't change the fact that society allows that law to be disregarded