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General election 2024

I’m newcomer to the UK, please explain what is the issue K. Starmer x J. Corbyn

176 replies

sunshinegrey · 20/06/2024 23:29

Sorry if it is a dumb question but what is the issue behind the 2019 elections and Starmer support to Corbyn? Why is it still a big deal?

OP posts:
YouAreAllMySymmetry · 21/06/2024 08:34

SilliusSoddus · 21/06/2024 08:27

Starmer's answer was shit but what I'd like to know is why this question is put to Starmer constantly but no one asks the same questions of Sunak who publically supported Johnson for a damn sight longer and more emphatically (BJ also outed from his party for being a shocker). The two scenarios are close enough to be comparable.

Sunak then went on to quit because Johnson was so awful and then, more recently, went on to praise him again when he looked to be re-entering the Tory campaign team.

Is it because there is already so much to criticise Sunak about, that no on bothers to ask him about the same hypocrisy?

Exactly. Labour are constantly taken to task over things that are seemingly acceptable for the Tories. And if they point that out then it's Slippery Starmer.

Then again the fact that The Tories are crashing so badly even when they have that implicit support from the media is heartily satisfying.

Spinet · 21/06/2024 08:34

Political party tries to win election shock.

Rishi Sunak telling us Keir Starmer is a Liz Truss is much bigger turncoat behaviour but then nobody expects a Tory to have principles to stick to.

cupcaske123 · 21/06/2024 08:36

YouAreAllMySymmetry · 21/06/2024 08:34

Exactly. Labour are constantly taken to task over things that are seemingly acceptable for the Tories. And if they point that out then it's Slippery Starmer.

Then again the fact that The Tories are crashing so badly even when they have that implicit support from the media is heartily satisfying.

Are the Left held to a higher standard? Johnson made some deeply unpleasant racist remarks for example, yet he was never really questioned over them. Do we just expect bad behaviour from the Tories?

Shortfatsuit · 21/06/2024 08:36

AGodawfulsmallaffair · 21/06/2024 08:10

Is it not also because JC was thrown out for being anti-semite and KS doesn’t want to explain why he didn’t know or didn’t seem to mind this previously?

Was there any real evidence for Corbyn himself being antisemitic? Or was it more that he was turning a blind eye towards antisemitism within the party and failing - on a monumental scale - to address it?

A bit like Sunak has failed to address rampant Islamophobia within the Tory party. I'm not aware of Sunak having actually said anything obviously islamophobic, but he clearly tolerates it in his party members and in some of his MPs.

MathiasBroucek · 21/06/2024 08:41

Screamingabdabz · 21/06/2024 07:51

It’s a big deal because Corbyn represents the ‘loony left’ and we are allergic to that in this country. Starmer was up his arse at that time and people want reassurance that he’s not the same.

As it is, the only ‘reassurance’ we have is that although he is clearly not part of the ‘loony left’, Starmer is a flip-flopping lightweight with absolutely no political or moral convictions whatsoever.

This. Corbyn was too far left to be electable. Starmer endorsed this position at the time but has now moved towards the centre. That's probably a good thing but it raises questions about what Starmer actually believes. That matters a great deal at the moment since he is likely to have an enormous majority

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 08:41

Screamingabdabz · 21/06/2024 07:51

It’s a big deal because Corbyn represents the ‘loony left’ and we are allergic to that in this country. Starmer was up his arse at that time and people want reassurance that he’s not the same.

As it is, the only ‘reassurance’ we have is that although he is clearly not part of the ‘loony left’, Starmer is a flip-flopping lightweight with absolutely no political or moral convictions whatsoever.

I think a lot of people see it as "Starmer was loyal to his boss and party", I do anyway.
If I went on TV and someone asked me about my boss, it would be nuts to say "he's off his head and incapable of leading". I'd get the sack and probably damage my companies reputation. I see what Starmer said in 2019 as an example of that.

It's such a typical politics non-story story. I was 🙄 when it got asked.

Shortfatsuit · 21/06/2024 08:44

cupcaske123 · 21/06/2024 08:36

Are the Left held to a higher standard? Johnson made some deeply unpleasant racist remarks for example, yet he was never really questioned over them. Do we just expect bad behaviour from the Tories?

Yes, I think people have different standards. Makes sense in a way. Right wing politics is built primarily on the values of selfishness and self-interest, so nobody really expects right wing politicians to behave in a particularly moral way and nobody is very surprised when they turn out to be completely self serving - that's kind of what they're all about. Left wing politics is grounded in beliefs about fairness and justice, so inevitably, we expect left wing politicians to live up to those values and behave in a way that is morally superior, and we are inevitably disappointed when they turn out to be as fallible and imperfect as the next person.

MoonshineSon · 21/06/2024 08:44

Shortfatsuit · 21/06/2024 08:36

Was there any real evidence for Corbyn himself being antisemitic? Or was it more that he was turning a blind eye towards antisemitism within the party and failing - on a monumental scale - to address it?

A bit like Sunak has failed to address rampant Islamophobia within the Tory party. I'm not aware of Sunak having actually said anything obviously islamophobic, but he clearly tolerates it in his party members and in some of his MPs.

The antisemitism is controversial as it, (though happy to be told I am wrong) people being anti Israel and Zionists. Rather than just the usual awful antisemitism towards anyone Jewish
Starmer is such a wuss he has finally said he backed Corbyn because he was better than Johnson. Only a fool would disagree with this. And of course he was going to back him as he was party leader to his party during a campaign. Loads of Tories currently a say they back Sunak but wait two weeks and you will see loads and loads of them distancing themselves from him.
it's a complete non issue that should have been handled much better.

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 08:49

Triestre · 21/06/2024 08:45

Starmer is saying it clearly. People won’t listen to anything.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn00dlzexevo

He's not wrong.
Johnson has broken the UK, our democracy and also the Conservative party with his lying, law breaking and cronyism. I can't think of a worse prime minister.

Corbyn was unelectable so we will never know what he would have been like as a PM, but my money is on ineffectual. He did however have principles and so automatically has a head start on Johnson.

cupcaske123 · 21/06/2024 08:54

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 08:49

He's not wrong.
Johnson has broken the UK, our democracy and also the Conservative party with his lying, law breaking and cronyism. I can't think of a worse prime minister.

Corbyn was unelectable so we will never know what he would have been like as a PM, but my money is on ineffectual. He did however have principles and so automatically has a head start on Johnson.

Someone told me the other day that Johnson was the best prime minister since Churchill.

YouAreAllMySymmetry · 21/06/2024 09:02

I think so @cupcaske123

We had a racist lying cheating father of an unknown amount of children as PM and it was apparently all good.

Jeremy Corbyn wore the wrong coat to the Remembrance Day parade and that still gets brought up.

EasternStandard · 21/06/2024 09:03

AGodawfulsmallaffair · 21/06/2024 08:10

Is it not also because JC was thrown out for being anti-semite and KS doesn’t want to explain why he didn’t know or didn’t seem to mind this previously?

Corbyn pro Hamas stance was reason enough to avoid

I’m glad the electorate said no. A few still rate him I guess

But this antisemitism issue too probably

CassieMaddox · 21/06/2024 09:06

cupcaske123 · 21/06/2024 08:54

Someone told me the other day that Johnson was the best prime minister since Churchill.

Were you talking to Nadine Dorries? 😂That's politics for you - peoples perceptions coloured by their own beliefs and values.

I'm a very honest person so can't get past the lying and law breaking. Others will be more "the ends justify the means".

AGodawfulsmallaffair · 21/06/2024 09:12

Shortfatsuit · 21/06/2024 08:36

Was there any real evidence for Corbyn himself being antisemitic? Or was it more that he was turning a blind eye towards antisemitism within the party and failing - on a monumental scale - to address it?

A bit like Sunak has failed to address rampant Islamophobia within the Tory party. I'm not aware of Sunak having actually said anything obviously islamophobic, but he clearly tolerates it in his party members and in some of his MPs.

I think you’re right re Corbyn, but if you turn a blind eye surely that’s much the same?

bombastix · 21/06/2024 09:12

sunshinegrey · 20/06/2024 23:55

I just dont understand why is such a big deal that he supported his party at 2019 but now he has to say that he did but he did not think his party would win

It isn’t. Unless you are a Conservative. Most people will recognise that if you are in politics then you are nominally loyal to your leader in public.

The Conservatives have forgotten that one because they are absolutely disloyal to their own leader which they stab freely.

Starmer will survive this - bar a few excited Telegraph readers shouting “for shame”.

Reugny · 21/06/2024 09:14

Shortfatsuit · 21/06/2024 08:36

Was there any real evidence for Corbyn himself being antisemitic? Or was it more that he was turning a blind eye towards antisemitism within the party and failing - on a monumental scale - to address it?

A bit like Sunak has failed to address rampant Islamophobia within the Tory party. I'm not aware of Sunak having actually said anything obviously islamophobic, but he clearly tolerates it in his party members and in some of his MPs.

He walked passed all the rabbis on Armistice Day while Sadiq Khan stopped to talk to each one. You could argue Corbyn doesn't like religion but he didn't ignore all the other religious leaders present. Oh and Sadiq Khan help put Corbyn on the leadership ballot so he's as bad as Starmer in that respect.

Sunak on the other hand doesn't think it is important as the first Indian heritage PM of the UK to have photographs taken with the leaders of France, Germany, US and Ukraine. There as Starmer managed to wangle an invite to D-Day commemoration from the French President via the shadow foreign secretary.

sunshinegrey · 21/06/2024 09:15

Shortfatsuit · 21/06/2024 07:53

I'm amazed that his PR people didn't coach him on a better response to questions about Corbyn. They were bound to come up.

All he needed to say was that all political parties contain a breadth of political opinion, that he did have private disagreements with Corbyn and concerns about the way in which the party was being run at the time, but that he felt that it was better to influence from within the party than to walk away. And that he campaigned for a Labour victory, despite his misgivings, because even after his disagreements with Corbyn had been factored in, he still believed passionately that a Labour government would be infinitely better for the country than the disastrous Tory government that we ended up with instead. And he still stands by that.

I think that is what I see. He gets way too defensive and his answers don’t make much sense when it could be so much more simple and matter of fact

OP posts:
SummerBarbecues · 21/06/2024 09:15

I don't see a problem with Starmer supporting Corbyn. It's like a PP says, if he supports a Labour government, then he's better off supporting its leader, instead of in-fighting, and get Corbyn elected as PM. It's better to be within the government and make changes, then being outside.

LakeTiticaca · 21/06/2024 09:22

Because Corbyn hates Britain and British people

bombastix · 21/06/2024 09:27

LakeTiticaca · 21/06/2024 09:22

Because Corbyn hates Britain and British people

You mean you don’t like Corbyn. Different thing.

YouAreAllMySymmetry · 21/06/2024 09:27

LakeTiticaca · 21/06/2024 09:22

Because Corbyn hates Britain and British people

Right enough 😆

cupcaske123 · 21/06/2024 09:29

LakeTiticaca · 21/06/2024 09:22

Because Corbyn hates Britain and British people

Surely not. He makes his own jam.

HappiestSleeping · 21/06/2024 09:29

@sunshinegrey the issue is this:

In any other business, course correcting based on new evidence is considered to be a good thing. In politics it apparently is not. It even has a name "U turn".

When Corbyn was leader, he had been elected such by the Labour Party membership. Starmer essentially supported his boss. Now that Starmer is the boss, you could take the view that he either said whatever was necessary to get to be the boss, or he has realised very quickly (or knew anyway) that the previous direction was the wrong one. In my view this was evident by the crushing defeat Corbyn got because he was completely unelectable.

The problem Starmer has now is that the further right the Conservative party go, the further right Labour has to go to capture the votes of the Conservatives who would normally be just right of centre and are finding the current regime too far right for them. He has to do this without making the traditional left Labour members feel too disenfranchised, which is a delicate balance as I'm sure you can imagine.

The press will take either stance depending on their mood and who they are wishing to sell newspapers to on a particular day. On Monday they may well be criticising him for going too far to the right, and on Tuesday, not far enough.

As an aside, this is the same battle that is going on between Conservative and Reform. The latter is far right and is capturing the Conservative members who believe Sunak isn't right enough.

Also as an aside, I think Starmer has a considered approach and is unwilling to nail his colours to the mast until he sees the true horror the Conservative party have left him to inherit, however he should have enough information to make some more definitive statements of intent. He is not doing himself any favours in this sense, and is essentially ahead because the Conservatives are losing, not necessarily because Labour are winning.