Nope to labour

[Mrsdeehoang]

I was considering voting for Labour, but their manifesto proposal to change the VAT on private education has made me reconsider. I'm not financially well-off, just about managing, and I took on two jobs to afford the fees for my son’s private grammar school. Despite our efforts, he couldn’t get a place in any of the five local state schools due to oversubscription, and our appeal was unsuccessful. We were instead assigned a school outside our area with a poor Ofsted report. Faced with this choice, I opted to work harder to provide him with a better education privately. The proposed VAT changes would make it even harder for families like mine to manage.

For me, Labour doesn’t seem to understand that not everyone who sends their children to private school is wealthy. I don’t like the Tories either, but I would rather vote for them than for Labour.

Yeah there is skulduggery going on in these comparisons.

Far right groups are not just GC feminists with more violent tendencies, they don't believe the same things and want the same outcomes. They are a completely separate group.

Violent TRAs at GC meetings ARE more extreme versions of the TRAs we have debates with online. They do believe the same things and want the same outcomes. They are the hardcore version of the same group.

I give up, you are incapable of having a discussion in good faith unlike others with GC views.

Merely asked for examples.

What exactly are 'GC movement failures'?

I don't wish harm on anyone. I want women to have single sex provisions. I don't want men in women's spaces and sports. I don't want women demonised for wanting this. That's all. Not sure what your point is there.

Exactly.

Far right groups are not just GC feminists with more violent tendencies, they don't believe the same things and want the same outcomes. They are a completely separate group.
They want the outcome to be transwomen are not seen as women. Whether they want it for the same reason you do is not the case. They have infiltrated your movement and cause others to not listen to any valid points due to that association.

We clearly are not going to agree - so not much point us continuing this is there? Sure we've all got better things to do than banging our respective heads against walls.

If you say so. I disagree but would rather not derail the thread into the evidence why because its been done to death. However, similar to you, many of the arguments I see online (here and on Twitter, where I lurk) GC posters are using the exact same language, arguments and positions as far right posters and protesters.

Far right groups are not just GC feminists with more violent tendencies
Many GC people aren't feminist. I get told all the time it isn't a "group" or a "movement" but just random people who prioritise biological sex. In which case it definitely will include far right people who prioritise biological sex.

If you are talking about "GC feminist groups" specifically, can you give an example of who you have in mind?

And as has been shown by women's hour yesterday.

You haven't persuaded anyone.

All that hot air, the millions of words, and no one cares.

Must be rough

@Aladdinzane
I haven't listened to that one yet.

I don't think you're right about attitudes among the public though. YouGov asked the same questions about trans rights in 2018, 2020 and 2022 and there has been a steady decline in the numbers who agree that trans women are women, and that trans women should be able to compete in women's sports.

I think there's a difference depending on the question that's asked. If you were to ask me whether transwomen belong in women's sports, I would say no. But if you were to ask me whether the matter of transwomen in women's sports is a priority for me in this election, I would also say no. And that's where it will come unstuck: the vast majority of people just don't vote on a single issue.

this is very true.
Having GC views doesn't automatically make you incapable of not voting solely upon that issue.

Surely you must realise that Labour are the lesser of two evils?
However awful this bloody country gets, at least I can hold my head high because I have never voted Conservative.
Partying whilst people were unable to attend funerals (including the Queen)
Johnson calling black people 'picaninnies' and describing Muslim women as 'looking like letterboxes'
£350M per week written on the side of the bus - failed to materialise
3 new hospitals have been built since 2019 vs the promised 40

No we are heading for bankruptcy and recession with labour, same as always.

We’ve got it now. The economy’s fucked.

Sure. But I mention the survey in relation to the claim that GC arguments are not making any difference, and these surveys show public opinion changing over time to favour the GC view.
Obviously winning the argument is one thing, but convincing people that this should be one of their top voting issues is a much harder job.

Making comments like this really undermines anything else you say.

What do you mean by "aligned groups".

The far right culture warriors certainly don't align with gender critical feminists - who embrace and celebrate masculine women, feminine men and full androgyny. In one crucial way the far right align with the people that they are protesting about.

Trans rights activists: believe in sex/gender stereotypes and that people can effectively change sex.
Far right culture warriors: believe in sex/gender steroetypes and don't believe people can change sex.
Gender critical feminists: don't believe in sex/gender stereotypes or that people can change sex.

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm saying GC people have not and do not aggressively disrupt TWAW meetings. I mean come on - most are older left wing lesbians.

@CassieMaddox
I get what you're saying.

I don't think it refutes my point at all that GC views and far right views are distinct and separate.

I am interested to go into this more, but everything I type out just seems like a long winded derail of a derail at this point. I expect this kind of topic will come up on its own thread reasonably soon and I'll give you my dull essay then.

Er. Aren’t we (or were we) in a recession? Under Tory leadership?

No we are not. Their strong point is not overspending and the economy. Labour are historically terrible with money.

Not as bad as Tories.

labour are shit with money always have been, always will be. Everyone knows that.

This clearly shows a lack of understanding of the facts.

You’ve just had a very easy to understand graph shoved under your nose proving you wrong.

I don’t care for a graph that looks like it’s been knocked up by 5 year olds thanks all the same.

So you refuse to listen to actual proof and instead go by silly sound bites? awesome!