Nope to labour

[Mrsdeehoang]

I was considering voting for Labour, but their manifesto proposal to change the VAT on private education has made me reconsider. I'm not financially well-off, just about managing, and I took on two jobs to afford the fees for my son’s private grammar school. Despite our efforts, he couldn’t get a place in any of the five local state schools due to oversubscription, and our appeal was unsuccessful. We were instead assigned a school outside our area with a poor Ofsted report. Faced with this choice, I opted to work harder to provide him with a better education privately. The proposed VAT changes would make it even harder for families like mine to manage.

For me, Labour doesn’t seem to understand that not everyone who sends their children to private school is wealthy. I don’t like the Tories either, but I would rather vote for them than for Labour.

Is there any need to be so rude? It's a debatable matter of opinion whether or not it's a mental illness. If it is a mental illness, we should be treating people with compassion, not telling them they have nefarious reasons for their illness.

Also I made the list of "womens issues that I think are a higher priority than girls missing school because they don't want to change their pads in mixed sex toilets". Maybe you could respond as to why you think those issues should be a lower priority?

There is a difference between treating people with compassion, and enabling the illness.

Strange though, how there is never compassion for actual women and girls. Strange that. Rather telling that the 'compassion' is all one way! If women and girls felt heard, felt listened to, and people treated us with compassion, we wouldn't be this upset or angry or frustrated, or determined.

I don't know if those things in your list are inherently lower priority or not. Not for me to say. But I do think they're a different kind of issue.

I think issues where there is an ethical question of right and wrong, and where the govt. has to make quite a binary decision will always attract more heated debate. E.g. to ban fox hunting or not, the iraq war, brexit.

Issues where everyone agrees they should be fixed but they require funding and long timescales to gradually improve (e g. cancer waiting times), will in my opinion usually be debated less intensely than issues where 2 camps fundamentally disagree over an ethical question.

The NHS website states that gender dysphoria is not in itself a mental illness, but that it can cause mental ill health. But of course the NHS has been invaded by woke 🙄.

Just catching up. If I’d said I wasn’t going to school because I might be overheard unwrapping a sanitary pad my mum would have told me to get over myself and kicked me out of the door.

I think this is part of my issue with the debate. It dies not have to be a "binary issue". It isn't binary now, it won't be in future as both Tories and Labour accept there are some males who are "legally women". So there really is no need to position it as binary and that just causes arguments. And as I've said, the arguing only harms women and trans people so it's totally unproductive.

I'm a woman and certainly don't feel heard, listened to or treated with compassion when I try to discuss this on here. Pretty willing to bet various other posters feel the same way too.

Maybe you could go and find some transgender people and tell them you understand them better than they understand themselves, and can tell them how they should be living their lives.

Maybe you could go and find some transgender people and tell them you understand them better than they understand themselves, and can tell them how they should be living their lives.

Maybe you should ask yourself why you think it's ok for men to be in female changing rooms.

because whether you agree with it or not, some hold the belief that trans women are women, not men.

In all honesty, would anything change your opinion on that? No. Will you change our opinion? No. Because we all have different lives and experiences. We have different philosophical beliefs.

But what we can change is our current government policy of shitting on the poor, gifting dodgy contracts to their rich mates and instead vote for another party which can significantly improve the lives of the many. Most women (even some GC ones) are prioritizing that to ensure the start of something better for everyone.

But what we can change is our current government policy of shitting on the poor, gifting dodgy contracts to their rich mates and instead vote for another party which can significantly improve the lives of the many. Most women (even some GC ones) are prioritizing that to ensure the start of something better for everyone.

But it's exactly that. A belief. Policies shouldn't be made on a belief.

I've said multiple times I'm not a Tory supporter, like a lot of GC women. I'd rather cut my arm off than have more years of this shit. I'm just not sure Labour are the ones to make everything better.

@Alwaystired94
In all honesty, would anything change your opinion on that? No. Will you change our opinion? No. Because we all have different lives and experiences. We have different philosophical beliefs.
But what we can change is our current government policy of shitting on the poor.

But the options aren't to either persuade you or fail to do so and keep the status quo. Our better option is to persuade as many people as possible, importantly including the people who make our laws (of whichever party).

If that’s genuinely what you want to accomplish you might want to reconsider your tactics. Calling people who disagree with you “handmaidens” and TRAs doesn’t seem like a smart thing to do. Nor does shouting at them.

If that’s genuinely what you want to accomplish you might want to reconsider your tactics. Calling people who disagree with you “handmaidens” and TRAs doesn’t seem like a smart thing to do. Nor does shouting at them.

Nor does calling people bigots, transphobes and extremists for not wanting males in female only spaces.

I agree. But nobody’s trying to persuade you. It’s obvious that your views are so deeply entrenched nothing would shift them. You need converts to join your cause. @Underthinker just said so. Frankly the behaviour on MN isn’t going to help you.

Quite. Shouting down feminist women who should be allies to what GC posters say they are trying to achieve is harmful, not helpful.

It makes me wonder if some posters are in fact motivated by protecting women and children, or if something else is going on.

But it's exactly that. A belief. Policies shouldn't be made on a belief.
All policies are made on beliefs. That's why they differ between parties!

E.g. The Conservatives privatise everything because they believe the public sector can run it better and cheaper. The Lib Dems want to rejoin the EU because they believe it will lead to more stability and prosperity. Reform want net zero migration because they believe that will preserve British Culture. Labour want to put VAT on school fees because they believe that private education is a luxury.

Well I've never called anyone a handmaid (that would sound pretty terrible coming from a bloke anyway) and I've never shouted at anyone.

I think shouting and insults (and worse) are much more a feature of your side of the debate, and I think most people can see that.

IIRC you are the poster who a few days ago complained that people weren't letting you have your own opinion right? And really it was just that you wanted to have that opinion without people disagreeing. And now when people disagree with you here, you say they are "shouting" at you.

People are coming around to the GC way of thinking. You can see more and more politicians realising it. Shifting opinion polls reflect this. I'm sure GC people sometimes say the wrong thing, or could be more diplomatic, but overall we make the best argument we can and 99% of the time that argument is more persuasive than the TRA one.

If that's all you have to say having read this thread with all the SHOUTING and rudeness I don't think you have been paying attention to the posters on your side.

blossom hasn't said anything rude at all.

Also I think blossom meant "you" plural, as in GC posters, not "you" single. Shame we don't have a plural form to make this clear. You (@Underthinker) are always polite in your disagreement which I appreciate.

Edited to add - you did originally refer to "our side" which I think was why she replied like that

I'm just not sure Labour are the ones to make everything better.
But again, i didn't say they can make everything better. But its a significant improvement for the vast majority of the country.

I did mean you plural. And this thread - like the multitude of others on the subject - has contained many shouty, insulting posts. Perhaps you’d like to show me the post where I complained I wasn’t allowed my opinion @Underthinker because it really doesn’t sound like the kind of thing I’d say.

as I've said to you before, BOTH SIDES are guilty of shouting stupid crap at each other. Someone bringing up valid points doesn't make them transphobic, but some of the comments i've read on mumsnet are very revolting and are not behaviour that can be explained by anything other than bigotry, Not all of course, i['ve had many discussions on here with GC who aren't like that and same with "TRA"

What strikes me most about this post is the last line, which effectively says that if you aren't a single issue GC feminist, you are by default a TRA. It's completely 'if you aren't with us, you're against us'. Nuanced positions are not allowed. And that is how you alienate people and stifle calm, rational discussion.

We moderates are not the problem.