Nope to labour

[Mrsdeehoang]

I was considering voting for Labour, but their manifesto proposal to change the VAT on private education has made me reconsider. I'm not financially well-off, just about managing, and I took on two jobs to afford the fees for my son’s private grammar school. Despite our efforts, he couldn’t get a place in any of the five local state schools due to oversubscription, and our appeal was unsuccessful. We were instead assigned a school outside our area with a poor Ofsted report. Faced with this choice, I opted to work harder to provide him with a better education privately. The proposed VAT changes would make it even harder for families like mine to manage.

For me, Labour doesn’t seem to understand that not everyone who sends their children to private school is wealthy. I don’t like the Tories either, but I would rather vote for them than for Labour.

Well said 👏

I missed that @pointythings. Yes, what a give away.

No I got that. I didn't think Blossom was specifically accusing me of that. I was just highlighting that I don't personally do that anyway.

Well I'm not digging through posts to find it (if it exists) and I do get posters mixed up sometimes so I'll just retract and apologise for that accusation.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

@Alwaystired94

"I'm just not sure Labour are the ones to make everything better."
"But again, i didn't say they can make everything better. But it's a significant improvement for the vast majority of the country."

This sums up the election for me. Most people want the Tories out because quite frankly they have done a crap job for the last 14 years.

The desire to vote Labour is based on the fact that they are not the Conservatives and the belief that "surely they couldn't do any worse than the current bunch".

Given the current economic conditions, the unrealistic hopes for a significant change of fortunes by many and an absence of any credible plan by Labour to achieve this, then I really believe that there will be in a short period of time after the election, a lot of disappointed and angry voters which will make for a turbulent next 5 years.

Many of these voters will then turn to the simplistic sound bite solutions of the right wing (Reform or a much more right wing Conservative) for the 2029 election.

@pointythings
What strikes me most about this post is the last line, which effectively says that if you aren't a single issue GC feminist, you are by default a TRA. It's completely 'if you aren't with us, you're against us'.

Not at all. Individual arguments can be gender critical or trans rights focussed or somewhere in-between. People can have a mix of opinions. But you do get these debates with lots of gender critical points being pitted against TRA counter arguments, in these situations I think the gender critical ones nearly always win out. Maybe I'm biased.

Someone in the middle like Cassie will put what I'd call TRA positions to GCs because that's the point of difference between her and people like me. I guess if she was getting into heated debates with trans rights activists she'd make what I'd class as GC points.

Defo.
I don't think we should be aiming for one side to "win" though
Plus to me if you follow the various GC points through to their logical conclusions it leads to full sex segregation and as a feminist we've come too far for me to want to support that.
It's like horseshoe politics for feminists in my opinion, where GC ends up aligned to MRAs or ultra religious positions.

Plus to me if you follow the various GC points through to their logical conclusions it leads to full sex segregation and as a feminist we've come too far for me to want to support that.
I see that as an example of the slippery slope fallacy.

I'm sure it is. But it is what happens in debates all the time and why I get irritated with being characterised as presenting a "TRA position" when I stop short of the bottom of the slippery slope.

I believe some of the things very hard line GC posters advocate for are damaging to womens interests overall. E.g. the ability to keep single sex working clubs. Gentlemens clubs and associations have been used historically to exclude women from decision making and influence, thereby reducing women's power compared to men's. Yet now some are arguing for sex segregation in any circumstances where people want it, thus opening the door to revert back to that model. Any benefit to women is in my opinion outweighed by the harms. But it is impossible to discuss with single issue hard line GC feminists as the "single sex spaces with no exception" is the only position they can tolerate.

For some this election is about 'not the tories' i agree, those people are different. But the sentiment i had was not that, my feelings on it are that i believe Labour will make the most improvement and be able to achieve it. Their policies are the most in line with my ethos and my values/priorities.

Where is the lack of credible plans by Labour? what have they said that they have not given a plan on out of interest?

"Not at all. Individual arguments can be gender critical or trans rights focussed or somewhere in-between. People can have a mix of opinions. But you do get these debates with lots of gender critical points being pitted against TRA counter arguments, in these situations I think the gender critical ones nearly always win out. Maybe I'm biased."

This is the difference between having a calm discussion as you have been having and GCs screaming at people who don't agree with them. And vice versa from people with the opposing beliefs. Of course you are biased. Much in the same way that in those situations i feel the GC ones rarely win out. But i will say out of all the threads i've seen/taken part in on MN your replies are never rude (that i've seen).

GCs screaming at people who don't agree with them.

When has this happened?

Look at what happens when women congregate to talk about women's issues. Who turns up in masks to try and drown them out by screaming, shouting and banging drums? Who has placards with 'punch terfs in the face'?

Does this happen when trans people meet up? No. It doesn't.

agreed. I've seen it from many GC's on here. "No trans women pass, i always know!" then list stereotypically things like long hair and good make up and such? GNC women already have issues from being confronted and accused all the time - my own friend has had it happen and had to call the police because a woman was harassing her.

are you seriously suggesting every GC delivers their points without insult or resorting to bullying/threatening behaviour? if so, how big is the rock you are under?

In plenty of places that happens. I had a lovely exchange with one yesterday on X where they said the neo nazis were decent men because they know what a woman is not like a disgusting freak like me etc. I've been accused of being a transwoman, a groomer and everything else.

"Does this happen when trans people meet up? No. It doesn't."
Are you insinuating that never has an event or rally or similar for those who believe TWAW been subject to those with opposite beliefs turning up and causing issues?

What, you mean like this?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-64539594.amp

Or this?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/07/met-accused-of-siding-with-far-right-group-in-anti-drag-act-protest

Or this?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/04/europe/lgbtq-drag-queen-far-right-protests-intl

One person's "justified protest" is another's "violent intimidation".

FWIW I agree with you about TRAs but that doesn't mean the tactics of some "GC" activists are OK.

We seem to be managing to have a mainly productive conversation here and one sided allegations equating that to what violent men do at protests is not helpful.

Cassie you've provided some examples of far right groups. That's nothing to do with GC women meeting up to talk about women's issues. But you know this. You are obsessed with linking the Far Right to women's rights.

What? You said "Does this happen when trans people meet up? No. It doesn't."

Don't move the goalposts when it turns out not to be true. TRAs are no more equivalent to most trans people, than the far right are to most GC people.

are you seriously suggesting every GC delivers their points without insult or resorting to bullying/threatening behaviour? if so, how big is the rock you are under?

Did you just make a point and deliver an insult there?

OK. The conversation is obviously too productive for some and at risk of actually getting to some agreement. Real shame that's obviously such a threat to some that the fighting has to start.

Notice i didn't call you names? I merely expressed disbelief that you truly believe no GC or aligned groups have caused issues at TWAW events.

Yes, I thought this thread had turned to civilised debate. Shame it didn’t last.

Notice i didn't call you names? I merely expressed disbelief that you truly believe no GC or aligned groups have caused issues at TWAW events.

Ah right, that's ok then because you never called me a name 🙄

The Far Right group/s rocking up to Drag Queen story hour given in those examples aren't 'aligned groups' just because they, like pretty much everyone else, know that men can't become women and vice versa.

Please provide me with evidence of women's rights group, or any women, causing disruption at a TWAW event. Please show me any woman telling a crowd to 'punch a trans person in the face' or holding a placard that states 'decapitate trans people'.

That's not what you originally asked for, hence moving the goalpost.

Violent right wing males turning up to "protest" trans friendly events seems very similar to me to violent TRA males turning up to protest GC events. Both are caused by a problem with violent males.

I give up, you are incapable of having a discussion in good faith unlike others with GC views. You demonise the 'opposite side' and take no accountability for the GC movements failures? No-one should be giving death threats to anyone else, whether they hold right or wrong beliefs in your opinion.
I don't wish harm on you or others who hold GC views, neither do i wish harm on any ACTUAL Transphobes because I'm not an awful human being. That's basic.