Women voting for Labour?

[bearsbritches]

To wonder why women would be voting for Labour when they support trans rights over women's rights? I am concerned we are going to descend even further into all of this 'woke' madness and it is women who bear the brunt.

Starmer has back peddled on the self ID policy all of a sudden before the election, shock, but we can't trust that.

I certainly won't be voting for the Tories and can't bring myself to vote Labour for many reasons. Where does that leave disillusioned voters?

Kemi Badenoch/the Conservatives have now said exactly the same with the "legal woman" stuff. I don't know why Labour get singled out by some for criticism on this.

Do you think that men should be allowed into female spaces or just trans women?

@CharlotteB94 yes correct. For me he's stupid or lying if he says some women have dicks. He's said it and it's a blatant raving lie.

For the record It's not me fascinated with anything, I'm not the one trying to upend years of accepted language, norms and social protocols.
I just want the Prime Minister to speak truth and use correct language which also has the side effect of protecting women's rights. I don't think my stance is the ridiculous one.

I think if a tiny proportion of the population, trans women, want to use a female (or male the other way around) changing room or other space as they present as that gender, and want to feel remotely comfortable, I have no issue with that over letting in all males, i.e. half the population. The two can't be compared.

I personally have never noticed a trans person using a changing room, or looking at me sexually, and I have no issue with it. I also just have no idea how it would be policed if rolled out as you want it to be, and I'm pretty sure the trans population already feel conscious that they were not born in whatever gender they feel they are, and don't need to be made to feel more uncomfortable about it. Again, it is a tiny proportion of our population. I care more about men who harass women and attack them on the streets which is far more likely than being attacked by a trans person in a changing room and also far more policeable - and should be.

No because there is a difference between being female and identifying as such.

You could equally say primary schools are for children, but if a 50 year old man identifies as a 5 year old girl and likes dressing up as one, then it would be unreasonable to not let him enroll in a reception class. Do we need doctors to examine all children entering schools in the morning to ensure they're not old men? Of course we don't, but that doesn't stop us seeing that a rule about which age person can enter schools is valid.

Do you not think though that even if he came out and said women don't have dicks, this wouldnt actually really make any difference to the day to day lives and injustice women face from all angles every day? Because I do and I want to vote for the party that I feel is actually going to take action to help protect women and make our lives easier, not just scapegoat trans people by a blanket statement and easy way out to appease a small group of women who feel this is a priority. As Rishi has done.

There is though! A 50 year old man would never pass as a child. Trans people are not all obvious transvestites with a beard you know. You might never know if you passed someone on the street who was trans. If a 50 year old man tried to go into a school that would be extremely and blatantly obvious. No point comparing the two, again - how are they going to police this when some people closely appear female.

It makes no sense to not have the rule because you fear you wouldn't be able to detect 100% of people who try to break it.
If you say a space is female only, nearly all males who try and enter the space will be spotted as male. If you say a changing room is for anyone who identifies as female, then literally any man can wander in and have a good gawp around and there is nothing anyone can do to stop them.

@CharlotteB94 (apologies to keep tagging but I can't reply to a quoted post!) I think if he started talking sense on this issue it would help safeguard women AND shield trans people.

The reason normal people like me, who were once like you and thought "does this really matter?" are now so annoyed/angry to the extent we will vote on this basis - is the issue DOES impact more than a tiny minority. It's crept into NHS language, teachings in schools. Police reporting that "women" have committed assaults. Scottish govt putting rapists i womens jails. It WILL go further if the people in charge don't do their duty and keep it in check.

To be clear, I am not scapegoating trans. I'm sure most are nice normal people. I reject the prospect of MEN being able to self-identify into women's safe spaces, as it is open to abuse by the predators who will grab the chance if it's easy for them.

At the moment though I think female changing rooms are generally used by females other than the odd trans person who presents as female? I don't think there'll ever be a chance all changing rooms will be unisex. Also, lesbians can use female changing rooms and no one seems to mind so I'm not sure why a trans person would be different unless we're saying all trans people are perverts?

There is a difference between someone presenting as female and a man, and common sense needs to prevail overall. I just don't see why it is such a main issue, it literally never affects my life.

If I as a man in my 40s, decide that next time I am getting changed at the gym, I'm going into the female room with you/your sister/daughter or whoever instead of in the mens *, should I be allowed or not?

*perhaps it's because I have an inner feeling of being a women that I've kept hidden until now, or perhaps it's because I like looking at boobs, who knows?

@CharlotteB94 Sorry the above was a question for you.

This whole trans thing is ridiculous, I think they should just make changing rooms single stalls, like the majority of swimming pool changing rooms, we all get changed in the pool changing rooms without complaint or issues (for the most part) and no one cares that they're men women or children in there. You have your privacy you get changed end of, same with toilets. Single stalls obviously what's the issue?

You're arguement is but they're attracted to women and they might be looking at me, in my experience the majority of trans men I've heard of or met are actually attracted to men, so they're effectively gay men, if you insist on calling them men, so no they're most probably not attracted to you, so by that logic you should also not allow lesbians into changing rooms because they might fancy you too. Nonsense

I understand the fear of oh what if a man pretends to be trans to get access. Ok but really how likely is that? Bad things happen, but ostracising all trans people because you're scared of what MIGHT (but probably won't) happen is ridiculous.

@Gemmahearts94 You don't need to ostracise trans people at all.
You just need to say people can identify how they want, but the very few situations where we have male & female spaces are actually sex based not gender identity based. Most of us are in such places for less than 1% of our lives anyway.

You can rebuild every changing room in the country to be stalls, but that doesn't solve the equivalent problems with sports, prisons or hospital wards.

We just need to normalise the idea that some people are gender non conforming to varying degrees, and we should 100% be accepting of that, but no one has changed sex, so they go to the toilet/changing room/sporting competition that matches their sex.

I do get that those born biologically as men might have an unfair advantage over sporting competitions but with regards to hospitals, the only wards that are single sex tend to be for biological functions that trans women wouldn't have like gynaecology and maternity? I don't understand why there needs to be a big statement over people going to the toilet or changing room of the gender they were born - can't people just get on with it?

People who are in prison, again could be in prison with a lesbian. Also, of all sectors of society who we want to protect and prioritize, given clearly we don't want the safety of trans people to be prioritised over women, why are we prioritising people who are in prison and not law abiding citizens?

I actually don't think 99% of trans people want to make women feel uncomfortable but probably also don't want to walk into a men's changing room literally looking like and presenting as a woman either.

I think it's best to just let people get on with it unless they are doing something illegal such as sexually harassing or attacking others, which applies to all genders and sexual orientations as I don't understand why we are singling out trans people when people are attracted to others of the same gender and use their spaces.

I think blanket statements from both sides and sweeping generalisations are not helpful, just let people get on as long as they are being respectful.

But either way, basing your entire vote off this is not something I would do.

I completely agree with this, and it actually wouldn't be that hard to do - bar the prison estate and sports.

I think it would be worth investing in segregated wings for GNC prisoners of both kinds - it would make literally everyone safer. In sports there's just going to have to be DNA testing - you're either XX or XY and that's it.

In hospitals it may also end up having to be a case of third space single rooms.

I actually don't think 99% of trans people want to make women feel uncomfortable but probably also don't want to walk into a men's changing room literally looking like and presenting as a woman either.

It doesn't really matter what the intention is. Many women, especially those who have been victims of male violence, have said that they can't help but feel uncomfortable around men, especially in a situation where they might be vulnerable/undressed.

By far the easiest and fairest solution to all of this is to accept some trans women may well feel uncomfortable using male spaces, but they can either learn to manage that discomfort or work around it by using some of the many unisex/gender neutral toilets & changing rooms out there.

Unfortunately no parties are pledging to protect single sex spaces. That's the real reason it's not a good idea to use it as a voting issue.

Feminists have done great work raising the issues, let's keep doing that regardless of who is in power.

If you forget toilets and changing rooms then, what about circumstances where trans women are competing professionally against women? In swimming, for example.
It's not about thinking the trans woman is attracted to the women she is outcompeting, but the trans woman is taking a place on the podium that could have gone to a woman. Is that ok?

That’s because they have zero intention of doing that.

Obviously I don’t want to “round trans people up” what I do want is to ensure that women and girls are safe, whether that is in changing rooms, toilets, Or rape Centres and prisons, women deserve spaces on their own, that does not mean I don’t also want trans people to be safe, and I am happy to campaign along side them for a third space. It’s not one thing or the other. Also genital inspections 🙄

It’s on their website.

https://assets.nationbuilder.com/reformuk/pages/1083/attachments/original/1712567516/Healthcare_Needs_Reform.pdf?1712567516

In terms of protecting woman's safety and which party are GC it’s the Conservatives.
Anyone interested in this will know the differences between the party’s. Unfortunately I don’t think many believe it’s that important despite the fact 51% of the population are women.
I do know women are voting Conservative with this being their top policy reason and I know of Labour voters who have switched over as well.

Maybe after the manifestos are out we’ll know more.
Personally I am treating it as a key issue.

The Conservatives are the only party prepared to stand up to Stonewall and protect womans rights and single sex spaces.
That’s biological women..obviously.

Articles on this almost daily.
Saying vote Labour and we’ll see 😳, if this is an important policy to you, is just Labourspeak.

The Conservatives also think there are two types of women - "legal" women and "biological" women. And they are going to let businesses choose to continue to allow TW in women's spaces.

Here's Kemi explaining it all