Why the obsession with maths A level?

[demareradreams]

Inspired by another thread where posters were saying a teen should consider maths instead of psychology even though their planned next steps did not need maths A level.
Maths is great for those that like it and are good at it. Not everyone who is good at it enjoys it. There are uni courses that require maths or for which maths a level would be an advantage. But there are also many courses where it’s not needed. In law or physio, for example, like in the previous thread.
On every A level choices thread, there will be a number of posters saying the teen should do maths instead of (insert another subject). It’s often paired with statements about “soft” subjects what “universities don’t rate as highly”. However when you look at the entry requirements, it’s usually just high grades what are required and they don’t care if the student has done maths or geography or sociology or physics. Unless of course they want to so a maths or physics etc degree.
So yes maths a level is great for students who are very mathematically capable and of course it’s essential if it’s part of the university entry requirements. But for others, other A levels are absolutely fine.

"But in fact if you plan to study Eng lit or French or history or drama then it’s not needed, and other subjects will be." Let's face it, other than English A level being a good idea, it is hard to see what other A level is needed for English. I did English, Maths and a language, many years ago, and that worked just fine.

Also, from another PP "maths is hard". No it isn't - if you can understand the maths quickly, it is very easy.

I meant other subjects such as history French or drama were neeed for those degrees. Mostly. Ofc you can take maths with English lit. You don’t need it tho and it won’t help you get on an English lit degree (for which English lit A level is more than a good idea tbh) any more than sociology or drama or the subjects some people like to throw shade on.

Yes if you will get A star in maths happy days. But if you like English lit and might also choose a degree in history or French, then those are much better options. That’s all I was saying. My dd took geog A level as a geog degree was a possibility. A maths one was not. She did Eng lit in the end.

I have no idea why you think the other subjects mentioned were better options. Maths is an excellent choice alongside arts subjects and shows a breadth of ability. It is also satisfyingly economical of study time,if you grasp the ideas easily. I think myself that we push kids too quickly into doing either arts or sciences and it is much healthier to do a combination, if it works for your subject. Maths fits in just fine, for some students.

I am simply saying that if someone will get an A in sociology and a C in maths, and wants to do English lit degree, then sociology is a better option. Yes maths is great for sure but not (and this I think is the OP’s point) if it will be a struggle.

So for my DD, geog and French with her English lit were better options. Because they were subjects she might have pursued. She was never going to do a maths degree and maths A level would have been two tough years. That’s all. It depends on so many factors.

@WhisperingAngelisnotbad The universities will say what subjects are required at A level for the degrees. They might give a steer to recommended subjects too. English lit is usually required for an English degree, for obvious reasons. Maths is required for many Stem degrees, for obvious reasons.

Your DS finds maths easy, others don’t. Is he brilliant at MFLs too? What about music? Dc play to their strengths don’t they? However a 7 in maths at GCSE isn’t likely to produce the highest grades at A level and without that, choices become limited. Your DS has Warwick or Bath for maths, but not Oxford. By taking maths, and not, say sociology, a DC might never get a chance of Oxford if they chose maths A level and got a B. That would be foolish if they could have attained an A star in another relevant subject. So sensible choices matter.

That’s very true. Sally Clark’s case is one example.

However…

Years ago I did the Legal Practice Course. It’s a one-year postgraduate course which follows either a degree in law or a a one-year postgraduate course in law. It was then the stage before getting articles with a solicitor’s firm, which leads to being qualified as solicitor.

We had a session on tax law. The lecturer was telling us how to calculate the VAT on bills. As an example he took a list of five items, and one by one calculated 20% of each cost and added it to the original cost. He then summed the five new amounts to give the total bill. So, 11 steps.

I suggested he add the cost of the five items, find 20% of the total and then add it to the new total. 3 steps.
(even better, add the costs of the 5 items and multiply that total by 1.20. 2 steps)
(1.20 or 1.2 is 100% + 20%)

That takes nothing more than a GCSE understanding of percentages. It only works if all the items in the bill are taxed at the same rate, which they were.

If that’s a typical level of understanding of a law lecturer I wonder who they will get to teach conditional probability. That’s covered in higher tier GCSE, too.

Well, this isn't about my son. Please excuse me for blowing my own trumpet a little, but I got a place, and eventually to a scholarship to read English at a very academic Oxford college, with maths. And of course, English Lit in there as well.

Maths shows logical thinking and there is absolutely no problem having it in with English. Thinking of my contemporaries, another girl had maths A level and did MFL, another had maths A level and read history.

Mind you this was decades ago - so long ago that it was a very competitive course to apply for - but I think that the same would apply today.

If you are good enough to get an A* with ease, it is a good choice. It makes a nice change from all the essay writing.

Employers are delighted to have highly numerate, highly articulate employees who can both write reports fluently and understand the stats.

If someone struggles with maths, then it's a bad choice. But that is a different question.

All of that is fine and I have no argument with any of it. I never said that it was a bad idea to do maths A level alongside Eng lit, or that it would stop you getting a place to read Eng lit. Of course it won’t.

And yes for sure if you will get an A star and enjoy it then win win. As I say, I am a linguist by qualification and I almost did maths A level. All good.

What I as saying tho and I still think this is true, was that maths is not always the ideal choice. There is a massive narrative on MN as @demareradreams has said, that you should do maths, maths is always a good choice, maths opens many doors. But if you will do better in another subject it may not be a good choice. And if it opens doors you don't care to go through, it’s arguably a waste of an A level.

If a 16yo loved Eng lit and history and also really enjoyed sociology, and couldn't decide which to study at uni (if any) they would be better taking those three A levels to see if they found they really really loved one of them, than dropping "soft" sociology at 16 in order to do maths which they did not like and would not do well in.

@clary : What I as saying tho and I still think this is true, was that maths is not always the ideal choice.

I've taught A level Maths for 25 years, and I agree.

@Februarysiceandsleet My DD is a barrister specialising in divorces. She has GCSE maths but when she started she was rusty. Like any intelligent person, she’s learnt what she needs to learn. She even manages to calculate her VAT bill. Total miracle without A level maths!

@clary I really don’t see why getting a C at maths trumps an A in something else!

I don't know much about VAT, but if it's simple percentages as in my LPC example then that's Foundation Tier GCSE Maths.

Congratulations to your DD, though. It must need many fine qualities to do her job.

I didn't do Family Law, I did Employment instead.

@Februarysiceandsleet The vat was my idea of a joke! Obviously working out family finance is a lot more complex! My general point is that people can learn if they need to. If she had taken A level maths, she would never have been a barrister as it wasn’t a subject she really enjoyed.

In GCSE Maths the general areas examined are Number, Ratio and Proportion, Algebra, Geometry, Probability and Statistics.

Although it’s all useful and interesting, in my opinion the first two are the most important for many people in general life.

Your DD will be using a higher level of understanding in those two areas, but taking A level Maths wouldn’t really have developed that further, not even in Numerical Methods.

A good grade in A level Maths may show universities and employers that the candidate can reason at a high level, but the actual content may not be of direct value. Other A levels might teach something more relevant to what the student wants to do in the future or just finds more interesting.

I think we agree that taking other A levels can be best for many students.

Those talking further matha A-level are not vanishingly small. Further maths is increasingly popular everywhere.

I have just googled for our part of the UK and you are correct - AI does say uptake for Further Maths A Level is increasing - but as the schools in our area did not and would not offer it, it never occurred to me that that might not be the norm. Back in my day FM was limited to certain schools and a handful of pupils. I genuinely thought that had not changed as it is the bubble in which we live.

I did try to persuade my DC to commute for 6th form to other schools which did offer it, but they didn't want to move and took on other subjects as their 4th A Level instead. One of my DC did the PAT and got to Oxbridge interview for Engineering, but the questions at interview then assumed all of A Level Maths and half a year of FM completed by that point, when of course they haven't even got to the end of the A Level course. That is fair enough, I think it would have been insanely difficult for them to catch up on top of a demanding workload in first year Uni, especially if everyone else has already done it (their older sibling caught up no probs in 1st year, but had longer terms and had to work hardest than course mates) I only mention this to show they were capable of FM and actually would have loved to have done FM A-Level at their existing school and did fight hard to try to do it as one of two kids who wanted to do it, but you really need at least a few in the class to make it viable and enjoyable.

So, I accept I must be out of touch with FM A-Level Provision elsewhere, which is apparently pretty standard and growing. Brilliant to at least have the choice!

Still perfectly valid choice to pursue subjects other than Maths though.

Doesn't a good pass at GCSE indicate a good degree of numeracy, as passing English does for literacy? Then at A level students study which ever subject support their chosen path, if they have one, or if not those they are good at and interested in

Of course for a lot of people, maths A'level is an inappropriate choice. BUT It's a great choice if you are good at it and don't have a desperate need to do other subjects instead.
I was good at it. It was my easiest A'level by far - had to do very little work to get top grade. Compare with Eng Lit, which I loved much more and was more related to the degree subject I wanted to do, but took up 4 or 5 times more of my time, and was much harder for me - didn't manage the grade I needed. However, my director of studies at Cambridge took me anyway, party because I had maths. He said people who are good at maths usually do well on a Classics degree. It was in no way a required subject, but it was perceived as an asset.
That was ages ago, but a good maths grade still proves something important to academics choosing people for their degree courses and to employers.

I would say only do A-Level Maths if you have to.

It’s not just about what you study but future jobs. A history or English degree with maths a level will make you a lot more rounded for future jobs

@LiquoriceAllsorts2 Not on MN education boards it’s not.

for those saying a stem subject mixed in with alevel choices make them seem more well-rounded, why maths specifically? Dd hates maths though she’s a decent 7/8 grader and can’t wait to drop it. That said she’s chosen for September: alevel English literature, history, psychology and biology. Does biology make her seem “well-rounded”?

Surely it depends on what she's interested in studying. If she is interested in archaeology and or anthropology then its a good combination. If its English literature then not so much.

Law is the first choice.

Not a bad combination for law - a couple of essay subjects, one that will require some stats etc (psychology) and if she does well she will have demonstrated an ability to learn a lot of facts which is also very important for law.

I think if a pupil is good at Maths, say grade 8 or 9 at GCSE, then taking it to A Level is a very sound choice. Yes, it's hard, but that's why it's a very respected A level, not just for university but also for future employers. Lots of careers involve Maths to some degree, and "Maths heavy" jobs are normally better paid, better prospects, and an A level in Maths does open doors to many jobs even if the degree isn't Maths related.

However, if a pupil is only working to grade 6 or 7 at GCSE Maths, then, yes, A level will be hard and may be too much of a struggle so I really wouldn't recommend it as there is the risk of crash & burn.