Why the obsession with maths A level?

[demareradreams]

Inspired by another thread where posters were saying a teen should consider maths instead of psychology even though their planned next steps did not need maths A level.
Maths is great for those that like it and are good at it. Not everyone who is good at it enjoys it. There are uni courses that require maths or for which maths a level would be an advantage. But there are also many courses where it’s not needed. In law or physio, for example, like in the previous thread.
On every A level choices thread, there will be a number of posters saying the teen should do maths instead of (insert another subject). It’s often paired with statements about “soft” subjects what “universities don’t rate as highly”. However when you look at the entry requirements, it’s usually just high grades what are required and they don’t care if the student has done maths or geography or sociology or physics. Unless of course they want to so a maths or physics etc degree.
So yes maths a level is great for students who are very mathematically capable and of course it’s essential if it’s part of the university entry requirements. But for others, other A levels are absolutely fine.

But surely that doesn't work with the A Level system? People are obviously going to play to their strengths and aim for Astar Astar Astar rather than Astar Astar B. I don't disagree the system is pants but if you only have three choices, you will probably aim for one you will enjoy and not have to slog your guts out for if you find one subject harder than another.

Incidentally, I'm a primary teacher and it's obvious children don't find maths harder than any other subject as a whole. Maths teaching has improved immensely in the past 10 years and I think children have far better conceptual understanding. Even among the cleverest children though, you can see some skew towards being better at English and some better at maths.

Edit: Trying to sort out asterisks that emboldened text.

@Jappled You have no idea though about which dc are going to excel at MFLs or music. The primary curriculum is useless in terms of a broad education if you include MFLs and subjects like DT and music. I think most dc have preferences in terms of subjects that click with them, and therefore enjoy, but they get a limited diet.

At A level, the biggest entry is for maths. Whether some dc take it because they are persuaded to, and then get the horror result of a B, is unknown. However it’s got the highest % of top grades and is taught from YR so maybe that’s not surprising along with the overall push for stem in schools. This has seen a collapse in other subjects dc find hard. Probably because subjects like MFL are barely looked at in primary school because we simply find them too hard to teach and dc are told they are worthless.

Yes I agree; I think you have misinterpreted my post. If you look back at my previous posts I made it clear I value MFL and think it's a great A level choice. I speak fairly decent French and German, my husband is a musician. Music teaching in schools is atrocious; it is the only thing I can think of that you cannot do at university with only school teaching as you need private tuition, which is completely unfair.

My point was just that I don't think in the primary system children find maths much harder than other subjects, not in the same way people of my generation claim they're rubbish at maths. Being good in various subjects of course doesn't mean you can't excel in another area. Indeed I said people will obviously play to their strengths - why get a B in maths when you might get an Astar in music AND enjoy it more.

@Jappled Yes, I don’t think dc find maths harder than English. I just think it’s a shame we push stem and have sidelined many other academic subjects. I would also suggest decent sports dc belong to outside clubs too in order to excel. These are not free either. It will be a dreadful day when dc are only considered bright if they do stem and we certainly need people with differing views and experiences.

In my DC's school (state grammar), in a year of 180, only 7 are doing physics A Level. Of that 7, maybe half are struggling. Chemistry, the class isn't much bigger and same applies. Biology and Maths fare better, but FM isn't even offered as it is so rare that students wish or are in the ballpark to study it.

Why Stem is pushed is fewer kids take it. And some schools are on the brink of having to close those departments due to lack of students and teachers themselves.

The push for Stem is not for status imo.

And those who go the Stem route, I don't think they generally regard themselves as superior simply for choosing a subject, they are just that way inclined or want a career in that direction. It is hard for kids who want to do Engineering etc

Hit post too soon, continued:

For those kids who want to do engineering or maths at Uni, without the option to even choose FM A Level at school, they face a much heavier workload in their first year of Uni on top of an already pretty loaded course. And although the really competitive Uni's say FM not required if your school doesn't offer it, it definitely is a disadvantage in trying to take the additional tests required to even get to interview. It does impact social mobility.

Pp's on this thread have made it clear that many state schools in England don't even offer FM GCSE, so no wonder A Level Maths is such a leap. Which makes FM A-Level even less likely to be taken.

I have posted before that GCSE Maths is probably sufficient for most careers, but for some Maths is important and those who take FM A-Level is vanishingly small and in some areas of the country, getting even smaller which is a waste of talent imo.

And also whats seems to be missing on the thread is that GCSEs are marked on the curve, there not designed for everyone to be able pass with a high grade, and there will always be children with the lower grades because that's where they fall in the curve. A grade 4 is a standard pass because it's where the average is so totally impossible to ask everyone for 8/9s.

This is where I show my ignorance in stats!
It would never happen, but what if one year every child that took maths GCSE got 90%?

That I have no idea about but I don't think it would happen as the paper would go through vigours testing, it's not designed for that to happen. Also don't forget the paper is already split in to lower and higher papers and google says that only 45% of students sit the higher paper. My daughter got a 6 in the higher paper and worked very hard for it, my son is on course to sit the lower paper.
So back to my point that not everyone can get an 8/9. My understanding is that the marking is done and then they split it out in to grade boundaries so if the top say 2% only get 70% then that is where the A* boundary would sit.

Good job too as my daughter currently has unconditional offers in to Exeter and Durham with her grade GCSE.

It's just not possible for every child to get above 90% as the vast majority aren't able to answer the last few questions on the higher maths GCSE paper.

My child got an 8 but could rarely answer the last 2-3 questions. Therefore the maximum he could ever get was around 85%.

Most children outside of high performing states schools and private schools aren't taught to a level to answer these questions.

As everyone (nearly) does maths GCSE, grades just have to be accepted as informing A level choice. It doesn’t entirely matter how an 8 or 9 is achieved. We do know that with a 7 or even 8, A level can be tough.

The question is whether too many dc are being pushed into doing it at A level. It’s around 112,000 who do and it’s the subject with most entries and much higher % of A and A star grades. Around 41% get this so for 46% of dc it’s a pretty good result and a B isn’t shabby either. Surely the question is whether the D, E and those dropping out would have been better served by not doing maths? It’s a possibility but schools should say 7 and above is needed in most cases. We do need people who think in different ways to make society work for us all.

Gosh that’s extraordinary and very sad. In London it appears STEM subjects are popular at all the high performing state schools and selective 6th forms. May I ask if it’s a girls school (doubly sad if so) and where in the country you are?

Separately, I would add my observations to the discussion that A level maths is useful because (1) a lot of graduate employers have a maths/numeracy test as part of their pre selection process (& while the content is not beyond GCSE level, if you haven’t done any maths since 16 you may be disadvantaged without doing a lot of extra practice) and (2) anecdotally (so take with a pinch of salt if you wish…) lucrative internships and jobs in finance tend to pre-screen for A level maths.

This is extremely anomalous compared to the national picture; and more like it was 20 or 30 years ago. Official U.K. statistics for 2025 rank Maths as the most popular A-level by far; and Physics as the sixth most popular A-level, with higher numbers than English, Business Studies, Geography, History, etc. In fact, the sciences are all very high: A-level entries by subject in descending order are Maths, Psychology, Biology, Chemistry, Sociology, Physics, Business Studies, Economics, History and Art and Design.

I don’t quite know why you think they are rare; but STEM subjects have been really pushed nationally at school level for many years now, and really are not at all taken by “fewer kids”. You can also see that Further Maths has more than 18,000 entries this year - more than any of RE, French, German, Law, DT or Music. You can look at the stats going back years on gov.uk:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/provisional-entries-for-gcse-as-and-a-level-summer-2025-exam-series/provisional-entries-for-gcse-as-and-a-level-summer-2025-exam-series#as-and-a-level-entries

This isn't a high performing school, just local, single sex and same was true for my older child in opposite single sex. We are far flung from London.

They are both very nurturing schools, so I am not knocking them. I know budgets are incredibly tight (school buildings freezing the heating is so light touch) and need to be allocated where there is the greatest demand. But it is frustrating when certain kids fly against the odds and are met with an attitude of - sure you don't need it, sure you don't really want to try for there, Uni's will give you a by-ball if we don't offer it and there isn't (or maybe there is, but not the budget nor expertise to teach it) the understanding that for the kids going into engineering, economics etc they are clipping their wings and making 1st year tougher than it needs to be. Plus some kids are just born to enjoy it, just as others are born to enjoy other subjects. These are the kids that DO get 100% in all their Maths papers whilst working 20 hours a week (before and after school to earn some money) through their final 2 years of school and still manage to play sport to school finals.

Sorry rant over, I appreciate not the point of the thread. I know there are initiatives to let them work on their own to do FM A Level online but half the fun (and for those kids it would be fun) is the classroom interaction as FM A Level is where it gets interesting.

I suppose I feel - we should all feel blessed there is the opportunity for our kids to have the option to take Maths and Stem, even if they decide it's not for them - even if they are not the 8's and 9's of this world. Boys in particular can switch off for GCSE and apply themselves for A Level. Let them have a lash if they want. A different/good teacher can make a world of difference.

And if a child wants to do all Arts or larguages or sports - that's fantastic too. Each to their own.

Where are the bulk of those FM A-Level entries? Which type of school and where?

You are absolutely right it hasn't even occurred to me to look at the National statistics before. It really doesn't doesn't correlate at all with my experience of our local schools. The stats are interesting, but I would be willing to bet those sitting FM A-Level are highly skewed to high performing Grammar and Private/Public schools.

I notice when I do read that report that it has decided to conveniently drop the data by Centre, by which I suppose it means by type of school/location.

@januarybikethief also just clocked for England, rather than UK.

Actually I suspect there’s a strong regional skew to the figures with London and SE dominating. We’re in London and I just checked our 5 local state 6th forms/comprehensives (we don’t have grammars) and they all offer Further Maths (1 is rated outstanding and the other good, so I’m not cherry-picking the best London schools). Then you have the Kings Maths School, Imperial Maths school and the academies like Harris Westminster and West London Free School and plenty of other good state comprehensive schools/academies. You would have no difficulty at all in getting a place at a state school in London with a large cohort studying FM/Physics/Chemistry.

Sadly, this Labour govt withdrew funding from the Advanced Maths Support Programme which specifically targeted support to state schools for the teaching of further maths, especially in disadvantaged areas. They also cut back the Maths Hubs and extra bursaries for training Maths teachers. They really have no interest in stretching the brightest and providing equality of opportunity wherever you live.

My experience (tho obviosuly limited to schools I know and schools I worked in) is that FM is commonly offered in many secondary schools tbh. I am aware that not all settings offer it, as if you want to do a maths degree (in a lot of unis anyway) and don't have it, the reason why should be the first sentence of your PS ("my school doesn't offer it").

But yes, my DCs' totally standard city comp offers it (about 8 people took it in DS's year, out of about 30+ taking maths), as did the rural comp in a fairly deprived area where I taught, and the city comp I also worked in, and another city comp where a friend works, and the closest village comp as well.

You are mistaken in assuming FM is mostly offered in private and grammar schools – I mean, I am sure it is, but it is also offered in state comps. The STEM offer in your DCs' school sounds poor tbh. 180 in the sixth form? That's bigger than my DCs' school sixth form. In DS2's year (about 120 students) about 10 took physics, about 20 chemistry and more than 30 biology bc they had two groups.

@clary I am sure that is true as my understanding is that state Grammars are the exception, not the rule in most of England and obviously there are high performing comps etc. It is good to hear it is still currently offered widely in your experience, including in deprived areas.

Though there must be some truth in the notion of disparity of opportunity as for example Bristol Uni specifically gives contextual offers to kids in certain areas to encourage them because they tend to out perform those from other schools/areas where attainment of the general of the cohort is higher. And all UK Uni's recognise that schools' not offering FM A-Level absolutely happens.

All I am saying is... Parents may not feel privileged to be in a school pushing Maths and Stem ... but they are privileged to have a choice (even if they are in such a bubble they are not aware of it). Should their child decide not to take Maths A Level, that's great that they are developing other skills.

I only understand umbridge if your child can no longer study a subject they wish to take. German is hanging by a thread in DC's school and few take music to A Level, but at least music is compulsory in the younger years, so it will likely survive a while yet.

@NamechangeRugby Yes you are right, the grammar school system is thankfully pretty rare in England. I am more than aware of the issue around retaining decent teachers of those subject (esp physics and maths) but I still think those subjects are encouraged by most schools. Teaching A level is the best fun so a decent group might make someone stay. Whereabouts are you out of interest (you don't need to say if you don't want to). And is that a sixth form with 180 in a year? That's a big group to have such a small STEM offering.

Music A level is much rarer actually; one person took it in DD's year at her school. And German is also at risk – no A level offered in DD's year and in DS's year his school was the only one in the city running it. So those are under much greater threat tbh than chemistry or FM.

I’m aware for sure of contextual offers, though they don’t AFAIK really go on what the A level offer is at your school, as much as factors around the deprivation in the area, among other factors (inc if your parents went to uni). The factors taken account of vary across unis but it's a step in the right direction at least.

Thanks @clary. Both schools do encourage Stem and the Physics and Maths teachers are great, but FM is not an option. I'd prefer not to say exactly where, but it isn't a 6th form college, just a large school with a very wide range of '11 Plus type' scores accepted on admission, so not a competitive Grammar in any sense. On revisiting their website, actually about 160 in each of the final two years - maybe that made a difference to my perception! In the area we have one boys school, one girls school, one mixed academy, one other mixed Grammar, again you don't need to score high to get in. Most of the higher '11 Plus' scores tend to commute to the more competitive Grammars from the start and they mostly do offer FM to small classes. Yes, kids do occasionally switch for 6th form (no one that I am aware of since Covid in my kids years moved) but to give the local schools credit, most are very happy and involved in school life once they start there and don't wish to start to commute. Travel costs also unpaid as local schools too close and commutable schools not their nearest school.

I think too few people know about Core Maths, and too few schools offer it.

My DD chose Core Maths as her enrichment topic because she’d selected a language and two essay-heavy humanities for A-levels. She had a 7 at GCSE Maths and knew from seeing her STEM-y brother working through A-Level Maths that it wasn’t for her, and her school was quite big on the “only choose Maths at A-level if you really love it” messaging.

She ended up loving Core Maths and got an A in it. It solidified what she’d learned at GCSE and brought in several of the more practical elements of the A-level course (esp stats). Now at uni she’s taking a quantitative research module and her Core Maths is proving really helpful, as it shored up all the skills she needs for it and she’s not had to pick the stats up fresh the way some her her fellow students have.

There is a “halfway” option for continuing with maths in sixth form for students who aren’t achieving 9s at GCSE, but it seems far too little known. The idea that it’s A-Level Maths or nothing is out of date.

Unless you're Michael Gove - "being average is not good enough", immediately giving away that he didn't understand statistics.

@Somersetbaker Well it’s not good enough for A level maths and most A levels to be honest. Nothing wrong with being average but expectation has to be managed.

It seems strange that a grammar doesnt offer further maths. The northern comprehensive my DD attends offers it (small 6th form, not high achieving). It isnt offered at all providers, but other A levels have much more limited offerings.