Why the obsession with maths A level?

[demareradreams]

Inspired by another thread where posters were saying a teen should consider maths instead of psychology even though their planned next steps did not need maths A level.
Maths is great for those that like it and are good at it. Not everyone who is good at it enjoys it. There are uni courses that require maths or for which maths a level would be an advantage. But there are also many courses where it’s not needed. In law or physio, for example, like in the previous thread.
On every A level choices thread, there will be a number of posters saying the teen should do maths instead of (insert another subject). It’s often paired with statements about “soft” subjects what “universities don’t rate as highly”. However when you look at the entry requirements, it’s usually just high grades what are required and they don’t care if the student has done maths or geography or sociology or physics. Unless of course they want to so a maths or physics etc degree.
So yes maths a level is great for students who are very mathematically capable and of course it’s essential if it’s part of the university entry requirements. But for others, other A levels are absolutely fine.

I also agree about "soft subjects" whatever tf those are.

Soft subjects are academic disciplines perceived as less rigorous than hard subjects, often including areas like Media Studies, Psychology, and Business Studies.
Definition of Soft Subjects
Soft subjects typically refer to A-level courses or academic disciplines that are considered less academically demanding compared to hard subjects such as Mathematics, Sciences, and traditional Humanities. This classification is often subjective and can vary based on the perspective of universities and employers. Soft subjects may not provide the same level of analytical and critical thinking skills that are emphasized in harder subjects.

(cut'n'pasted answer)

@demareradreams DD was exactly the same as some of your friend's DC, was competent and achieved a 7 at GCSE (possibly would have been an 8 if one paper hadn't been an average mark due to school errors but that's another story) but would have never made the leap to A level. Took Physics, Chemistry, Geography and German and made it through fine without Maths, and is currently in year 2 of a STEM degree and no issues with not having Maths. Actually some of their peers who do have Maths A level are struggling because they don't have a different science instead so it's very worth checking degree/apprenticeship requirements and strengths before making a decision on what to take at A level. You don't mention DC in your OP but hopefully yours will choose what's right for them if that's applicable!

The problem is grade inflation at GCSE makes some students look more capable than they actually are.
40 years ago an A grade at O level really did indicate high ability, and it was easier to make a confident decision to go onto Maths a level.
Consequently level 9 at GCSE is the only grade really comparable with an old O level grade A.
So level 8 as a minimum would be my suggestion for continuing to A level, even though some places will take you with less.
Maths A level is a really miserable option for students with lower grades. Lots of students take it as their " 4th option" with the option of dropping it by Christmas if it is too much -and most do.
Regarding the pressure to do A level maths and comments about the so - called " soft subjects"
Maths does link in most employable degree subjects so I guess that's why people want to keep their options open.
Sociology and psychology are heavily oversubscribed courses with higher graduate unemployment rates. So potentially a large student debt with few employment prospects at the end.
So if a student is not Level 8 or 9 at Maths it might be worth looking at more vocational courses at FE. Higher level Btechs and degree level apprentices might be a better option for future employment.

Im not sure looking back to O levels is really that useful these days. They were a long time ago & only ever taken by a proportion of the cohort. The first GCSE exams were in 1988. Coincidently, it is the year I started secondary school & Im not that far off 50. When I was in '5th year' early leaving (before exams were even taken) was seen as fairly unremarkable. It was a different time with a totally different educational landscape. Anyone who was in a regular O level cohort is 50+ now.
Also, I really value vocational and apprenticeship options. They can lead to great careers. However, degree level apprenticeships are incredibly competitive and quite rare. They shouldnt be looked at as a fallback option for less academic students. Other apprenticeships & vocational options can be more acessible (but this is very area dependent).

Im not sure looking back to O levels is really that useful these days. They were a long time ago & only ever taken by a proportion of the cohort.
GCE O-levels are still valid. Back then you did O-level or CSE, or a combined syllabus. A grade 1 CSE was the equivalent of a grade C at O-level.
Someone with O-levels could be 55, so not at retirement age.

I didnt mean they arent useful, valid qualifications. Totally get they are still on people's CVs. I just meant in terms of considering what is a good qualification framework going forward, they probably arent the most useful reference point. I have an AO level myself.

Maths is a good a level for so many degree subjects, in the case of that post, the young person was considering a degree that required 2 science a levels and psychology simply isn’t accepted as a science by many places. Maths is excellent if you want to study social sciences at university too. I hate maths myself and am pretty incompetent at it but it is an obvious choice for many young people

@demareradreams I haven't read the whole thread, just your posts, so forgive me if I'm repeating something raised by someone else. What struck me about your posts is that they're entirely focussed on getting into university, rather than on the next step of getting a good graduate job. Many parents haven't yet caught onto the fact that getting a good graduate job is not as easy as it used to be. There are far more graduates competing for them, from many more disciplines. Back when I was a graduate, in 1993, the tech and consultancy and finance industries were booming and the Milkround existed to recruit final year students on the understanding that, whatever degree they had, they could be trained to do X, Y, Z. Now things are very different. Some big companies don't want to train 'any degree' graduates to do X, Y, Z because they can train apprentices to do those things more cheaply. The number of 'any degree' graduate jobs has therefore reduced. More employers are looking for specific degrees or a range of degrees demonstrating specific skills. Humanities subjects for Law.would be one example, but if you study the graduate job market for a while you'll see there are many more graduate employers looking for STEM skills than humanities skills. STEM, especially maths, therefore gives a competitive advantage to young people.

Of course, if a young person doesn't want to do maths then that is fine. I am only explaining why many parents encourage their children in that direction.

If A Level maths is a stretch, look at Core Maths - it is a brilliant course with a bland name that doesn't do it justice.

They're not a useful reference point, @Owlbookend , because they won't mean much to someone who doesn't have one.

as many people have commented most of the other largest economic countries require maths to 18

I ask again, what would you teach 'up to 18' someone like me, who reached the limit of her understanding and ability at O Level? I got a 4, when pass grades were 1 (the highest) down to 6, and was surprised I'd done that well.

What would I be doing in maths lessons for two more years? (Other than being bored and clueless.)

NobleGiraffe's A-level maths table

That link is really interesting and I think helps my argument. Maths is on the list of preferred subjects but so is a wide range of others, including, horror of horrors, sociology! So if you want to apply to LSE for a degree that doesn’t require maths, then there is no benefit of taking maths rather then x y z.

I’d very much argue that psychology is NOT a soft subject!

The young person in question wanted to do physiotherapy. Biology is the only science required to do physio. Psychology was a perfectly acceptable a level for the course they wanted to do. In fact I’d say more useful than maths for that course / career.

Are you saying that a person should not go to university if they did not get a grade 8 or 9 in GCSE maths as they won’t be able to study a course that will then get a job out on graduation? I’m very much a supporter of BTECs and degree apprenticeships, but you are talking utter rubbish!

It’s one of those conundrums, how maths develops critical thinking and expands your mind like nothing else, yet plenty of maths enthusiasts on this thread are demonstrating a distinct lack of breadth of thought.

Yeh media and business and psychology are not easy at A level. I mean for some they would be, just as maths was a walk in the park for DS’s mate who went on to study it at Cambridge. Personally French A level was pips but biology would have been a challenge for me.

The idea that any A level is intrinsically easy (or easier) needs to get in the bin IMHO.

Suspect it's partly due to a fair few parents on this forum seemingly having children at high performing schools who mainly got all 8/9's at GCSE. These children are often aiming for elite universities doing degrees which lead to the highest paying jobs.

For these children doing maths at A level may make sense but I think some forget the vast majority of children aren't going to the highest ranking universities.

For most children doing subject they enjoy whether it's STEM so called soft subjects or BTEC's which allows to get the highest grades is best.

There will be some courses which require certain grades and it's therefore best to have a look at some courses to consider this.

As for maths my son found that they could get a 7/8 without much effort at GCSE but that's not possible for the vast majority at A level where probably 5-10 hours a week of practice is need by many to get A/B for these children

@Emyj15 , in my case, I'd disagree. Of the subjects I studied at school, Maths has been the most useful. I did A-level Maths.
It is less easy than many subjects because you need to understand the concepts and you can't just memorise it.

Yea don’t understand why people thought math would be better than psychology for a (I think) law degree. You’d think that psychology would be very good for a law degree!
And there aren’t really ‘soft’ A levels anymore - there a few that most unis don’t consider. But if you have a math brain or a writing brain you are going to find the relevant A levels ‘easier’. Being good at one or the other doesn’t make you cleverer. Maths was the most popular A level in my DDs all girl school, with STEM subjects being the most popular degrees. It certainly was not her forte. Statistics does make up a module every year on her course but she’s fine with it without having done math.

You’d think that psychology would be very good for a law degree! I wouldn't, and I'm not the only one.

Yah it’s a good point. In Canada when I went to uni we needed 6 equivalent a levels and two had to be maths and English. Canada has the most amount of degree educated people on the western world so it’s working over there.

Not suggesting maths isn't useful. My child is doing it because it's one of only 2 GCSES he actually liked. It not required for the degree he wants to do at most of the universities he's looking at but there will be an element of A level maths equivalent modules.

The point is that it's not necessary for many and not really useful for children who end up getting a D or E in it when they could of got a higher grade at another A level or BTEC.

My child knows a few this has happened to.

The problem is parents trying to encourage their children to do maths when it's not what they want to do or are not suited to it.

Could have not could of.

I'm old so I did O levels. I didn't enjoy maths but liked algebra because I got to use Greek letters.... After uni I went to Price Waterhouse and there was nothing in the accountancy syllabus that involved anything that was not in the O level syllabus I studied. (I realise I was somewhat unusual in doing basic calculus for O level though.) Much of the maths I needed for my career had been covered in primary school. I would have appreciated a bit less topography/calculus and a bit more stats in my maths career at school.

DH is a maths whizz and also good at MFL but he is hopeless at seeing both sides to an argument which, as a history graduate, I find instinctive.

It takes all sorts to make a world and life would be endlessly dull without that variety.