Why the obsession with maths A level?

[demareradreams]

Inspired by another thread where posters were saying a teen should consider maths instead of psychology even though their planned next steps did not need maths A level.
Maths is great for those that like it and are good at it. Not everyone who is good at it enjoys it. There are uni courses that require maths or for which maths a level would be an advantage. But there are also many courses where it’s not needed. In law or physio, for example, like in the previous thread.
On every A level choices thread, there will be a number of posters saying the teen should do maths instead of (insert another subject). It’s often paired with statements about “soft” subjects what “universities don’t rate as highly”. However when you look at the entry requirements, it’s usually just high grades what are required and they don’t care if the student has done maths or geography or sociology or physics. Unless of course they want to so a maths or physics etc degree.
So yes maths a level is great for students who are very mathematically capable and of course it’s essential if it’s part of the university entry requirements. But for others, other A levels are absolutely fine.

That's true of lots of A level subjects tho. Biology, physics, chemistry, French, German, Spanish, English lit, geography, history, music, RE...

Actually maths A level doesn't keep open the option to study maths at uni, at least the most popular unis, unless it is paired with FM. Which is definitely beyond the ability of a lot of people.

And @User1367349 A Maths A-level is worth more than many other qualifications – erm based on what exactly?

Anyway I am very excited now about all the marvellous lucrative worth-so-much-more-money job offers that will come rolling in now for DS2 bc he has A level maths... He’ll be able to keep his mum in some style (and never mind his presumably worthless masters degree in biology - it’s the maths A level that will swing it with employers).

Yes but it’s so obvious

ditto it’s obvious that if one of wants to study art or history or religion at University that maths is not so useful

Some of these responses are a bit strange.

My son does maths and further maths at A level because he is good at maths and finds it relatively easy.

He is not very good at the arts so has avoided them and won't be seeking a career where they are needed.

If a level maths is hard why on earth would you take it and come out with a D or something especially if it's not needed. Maths is so abstract - perhaps what more young people should take is Core Maths.

@clary I did not make myself clear as your daughter was never in doubt whether she should do mathematics: she did not like it. But if you cannot decide whether to do CS or maths, do maths. If you cannot decide whether to do economics or maths, do maths, if you cannot decide to do sociology or maths, do maths. In this way you cannot go wrong. It does not mean that someone who cannot decide between say French and History, suddenly should do maths.

yes agree with this. I'm all in favour of maths and would deffo say do it if it was a decision between econ and maths, as maths will keep doors open than econ will not.

I have a maths degree, so I'm pretty much in favour of maths generally.

However if a student would get a C/D in Maths A level versus an A/B in any other subject, then I would query the benefit in doing Maths. Surely it only keeps more doors open if you get as good a grade in it as in your other 2 subjects? Otherwise all it does is shut doors from courses wanting eg ABB.

Keeping doors open is only important if you may realistically want to go through those doors.

I agree.

However I wish people would stop with comments like "maths is so hard", as though this is a universally held fact.

For me, (also maths degree) maths A-level and further maths A-levels were a doddle. I don't think I did any extra work, I certainly didn't pay much attention in lessons, and would have expected to get 100% on the single maths papers, and the further pure paper, and close on for further applied...
But give me a language to learn, or art, or most essay based subjects and boy would I have had to work, and wouldn't have scored as well.

As with all subjects, if you are talented at it, then you may well find it easy. If you aren't then you may find it impossible.
Maths is a bit different in that hard work will only get you so far, but that doesn't mean that is is difficult for everyone.

Maths A level is a good choice if you need it for next steps (e. g. you want to do engineering at uni) and/or you enjoy it and are good at it. You need to do well at GCSE to have a good chance of a good grade a A level. The vast majority of degree courses do not require maths. You are likely to have more options with a higher grade in another subject than a lower grade in maths. If it is a requirement then you will need to
go for it, but if it isnt other choices may be better.

As an aside, as a whole UK students perform well at maths (compared to the US and most of western Europe). We are often very down on kids achievements, but the statistics suggest this is an area we do relatively well in
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scores-by-country

East Asia performs, best as expected, but we arent doing badly.

I also find on MN people suggest maths is needed for a lot of courses, when in reality it isnt. A common one that comes up is psychology. Maths could be useful, but it is rarely required.
For example, this is what Manchester asks for:
AAA, including one or more of: Psychology, Biology, Human Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Statistics, Mathematics, Further Maths, Applied Science. Applicants who are predicted AAB are encouraged to apply as they will still be considered for our standard offer.

If you are more confident of getting an A in psychology or biology than maths these would be better choices.

Personally I would prefer a Prime Minister to have A-level maths and a sound grasp of statistics rather than the ability to read Tacitus in the original Latin, I would also expect him to have paid attention in human biology and understand at least the basics of contraception! But never mind if you speak posh and have funny hair that will do.

The obsession in part came from the previous Conservative government, as research by London Economics in 2012 showed that there was no increase in earnings based on any particular A level EXCEPT maths, where it led to an increase of 10% in earnings. The government then started pushing a level maths and STEM, often at the cost of other subjects. There’s also the higher demand for quantitive skills, leading to a higher demand in quantitive qualifications, many of which require a high level of maths to access. However, I would only consider studying A level maths if you’re interested, need it or are good at it (and of course likely to pass it). Otherwise, Core maths might be a better alternative, or likely another A level altogether.

As she had a chemistry degree, I assume Margaret Thatcher was relatively numerate (although I can’t find what A levels she took; perhaps a different system back then).

She would have done the School Certificate and the higher school certificate

The push for maths is because we’re competing with a global economy (as many people have commented most of the other largest economic countries require maths to 18) in an increasingly data driven world.

you may not need maths to get a job, however I imagine a lot of promotions will require using data about staff and finances - having more numerate and problem solving skills will give you more opportunities.

if maths a level isn’t right then core maths is a great qualification (I genuinely think every politician, journalist, lawyer should be made to do core maths at the very least).

A 9 at GCSE is a really good predictor for doing well at A Level in general - but 7’s and 8’s also have a good chance of doing well.

I think students with a 7 and above in maths should seriously consider studying it as it’s going to open more and more doors. The reason it’s promoted so much, though, is a very neoliberal idea of training people for a data and AI driven economy. Much as I love maths I also think we need authors, artists …

Not many jobs require a maths A-level either (post graduate)

I'd love it if a 7 was a good basis for a good grade at a level maths, but if you are looking at competitive uni courses it is really quite marginal. @noblegiraffe has tables, but I think it is something like a 1/4 chance of a B or higher with a 7 at GCSE. I think (not absolutely sure) that the most likely outcome is a C. This is a commendable grade, but can rule out some competitive courses. Apologies if I have misremembered.
Im not trying to put people off - A level maths is a great qualification, but you really do need to make an informed choice. Thinking about what is needed for next steps (in terms of subjects and grades) and the probability of different grade outcomes is important. Core maths can be a great alternative choice for some. It keeps maths skills going.
None of this is because the reformed maths GCSE isnt a stretching qualification. Look at the PISA stats above. However, to do well at A level you need to start with confidence across the GCSE algebra topics. Even with a 7 some of the more advanced GCSE algebra can be shaky if your strengths lie in number and stats/probability. Working hard can result in a great outcome from a 7, but it is important to make the choice from an informed position.

I can’t for the life of me fathom why anyone would take maths unless they a) enjoyed it or b) their chosen career, eg engineering, required it. They should be the only reason anyone takes any A Level.

My dd took maths even though she didn’t need it to get into uni (she did English lit). It was hard to chose A levels as she was pretty good at most subjects, got all 8’s and 9’s in GCSE. She was also unsure what she wanted to do at uni and was originally going to do Computer studies (ICT) so I guess the maths would have helped. She changed her minds during 1st year of A levels and chose to do English at uni. She graduated last year and is now working in computing for an engineering company so isn’t using her degree as such. Maths is always a good A level to have as Maths is used in almost every job? Of course no one has to take it if they don’t want to but if they are good at maths it’s a good A level to take. Dd got a C and found it much harder than GCSE Maths (which she got a 9).

I’m a humanities academic but took A-level maths as I really enjoyed it. I think it’s a great A-level if you’re suited to it; but the content of A-level maths (apart from some of the statistics element) is really not needed widely in non-STEM jobs.

A-level pure maths and mechanics is largely concerned with calculus and functions that are just not going to be relevant to the vast majority of careers (imaginary numbers, trig, etc.). The statistics element is probably useful if you want to, eg., train in accountancy, or pass the Civil Service fast stream exams. But it’s much better for A-level students to pursue disciplines they are good at rather than take maths because they think they ought to.

It’s not an easy A-level and requires aptitude as well as hard work. I enjoyed it partly because it was very abstract, and not concerned with numeracy skills at all (in fact pure maths has very little to do with numeracy and more to do with manipulating abstract ideas and patterns). It was quite a relief to get away from all the adding up and calculating at GCSE, and just do algebra! I later worked briefly in a numeracy-related profession, and the maths I was required to do was much more like GCSE than anything at A-level.

NB also, as a university professor, I mourn the demise of the popularity of the IB in U.K. schools and the AS/A2 system, and the reintroduction of the Gove “reformed A-level”. It hasn’t increased rigour or intellectual challenge, but what it has done is narrow students’ subject choices down very dramatically.

At IB students need to do a maths element either at standard or higher level; and under the AS/A2 system most students took 4-5 subjects at AS and then dropped to 3-4 at A2, but this meant that it was quite normal to mix arts and sciences in year 12, and routinely to take maths AS even if it wasn’t then taken further at A2. This allowed students to at least try out a subject without feeling they were committing to the entire A-level. I suspect that what most people in this thread really would find a good solution, is more students across the board taking something like an AS in a mathematical subject, but not necessarily all the way to a full A-level.

If I had the power, I would bring back the AS/A2 system or something more like the IB, so that it was possible for students at sixth form to take a slightly wider range of subjects before specialising. It was a healthier system both intellectually and in terms of stress on the students, and with a more international outlook. The very narrow and dull focus of the reformed A-level system is not intellectually exciting or educationally progressive.

I agree that the old system where most people started with 4 ASs and dropped to 3 A levels in Year 13 was much better. It made choices less 'high stakes' - if a subject was problematic it could be dropped. Also enabled a slightly broader range of post 16 subjects.

I totally agree. DS15 wants to do Maths, FM and Physics because he really enjoys them but DS17 chose completely different ones. He'd have been miserable doing maths and we'd never try to push them to choose things they didn't enjoy.

I agree but most of what is required is covered at GCSE!

@demareradreams Globally we are unusual in the UK in not keeping Maths in the curriculum as standard post 16.

It very much depends on the university and subject. Best to check the admissions page on the website. LSE, for example says they had 30,000 applicants for 1,900 places in 2025 and have a list of preferred A Level subjects. Obviously, they are going to give offers to those predicted the highest grades in the preferred subjects. The subject list is here: www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Undergraduate/Prospective-Students/How-to-Apply/Admissions-Information

England (& to some extent other parts of the UK) is a bit of an outlier in terms of post 16-18 education generally. It isnt just maths that differs.
A lot of other countries continue with a 'general' for want of a better word education for the majority of students to 18. General education requirements often include requirements for courses in the native language, maths, a foreign language,humanties and science to 18. There is more breadth and (arguably) less depth. The split at 16 between vocational courses (often but not always taken by lower attaining students) and academic courses ( often but not always taken by higher attaining students) found In England isnt always aparrent. For many countries 'general' education continues to 18 for the majority of students with compulsory subject requirements (look at the US and Scandanavia for examples).

Whether this is better is debatable. There are pros and cons. However, although I think.going back to the AS system could be acceptable, I think broademing compulsory subjects (or even just maths) is likely to be very unpopular. We are very wedded to choice as far as subjects are concerned. In many other countries, they push a broad and balanced compulsory curriculum. In England, early specialism.is common. Many students drop foreign languages and history or geography at 14 (never to study it again) nevermind 16. In lots of other countries this would be unheard of. Im not saying it is better or worse, it is just a different approach to education.