Why the obsession with maths A level?

[demareradreams]

Inspired by another thread where posters were saying a teen should consider maths instead of psychology even though their planned next steps did not need maths A level.
Maths is great for those that like it and are good at it. Not everyone who is good at it enjoys it. There are uni courses that require maths or for which maths a level would be an advantage. But there are also many courses where it’s not needed. In law or physio, for example, like in the previous thread.
On every A level choices thread, there will be a number of posters saying the teen should do maths instead of (insert another subject). It’s often paired with statements about “soft” subjects what “universities don’t rate as highly”. However when you look at the entry requirements, it’s usually just high grades what are required and they don’t care if the student has done maths or geography or sociology or physics. Unless of course they want to so a maths or physics etc degree.
So yes maths a level is great for students who are very mathematically capable and of course it’s essential if it’s part of the university entry requirements. But for others, other A levels are absolutely fine.

I want even allowed to the higher maths (Scottish A level equivalent back then). Husband had a tutor to get through his maths exam. I could only sit the General and Foundation paper so I got the highest grade I could which was the equivalent of a C. It hadn’t held me back. Although I had undiagnosed ADHD. I can do arithmetic, percentages etc but once the alphabet starts getting involved or you have to do multiple lines of working out my brain just goes ‘NOPE!’

Things like problems with words are bad hit me. For example: John has brown trousers, which cost £17, he wants a new pair of red trousers. Trousers have increased by 7% since he bought his brown pair, red are also an additional 3%. How much will John’s red trousers cost.

Normal brains be setting out all the numbers whilst my brain is like ‘who the hell wants brown trousers? Is he old? Are these nylon old man trousers. His brown ones are probably his every day pair and his snazzy red ones will be for the dominoes club…oh does he fancy Doris the widowed tea lady….’ ADHD is a fantastic entertainment tool but shit for problem solving.

If pps' mean their kids are trying to jump from GCSE Maths to A-Level without the GCSE FM inbetween, that would be a fair leap.

I'm just saying that there are alternative courses at uni or elsewhere in industry that young people might be much better at, be much happier pursuing and have better employment prospects . I'm not saying these courses are necessarily easier, but they are different in their approach and rely less on pure Mathematics and more on application.
A level maths has a very traditional and linear approach which doesn't suit a lot of people. In many ways the syllabus is designed for those who want to go on to a theoretical, traditional STEM degree.
I think you are rude to say my comments are " utter rubbish"
Suffice to say I have decades of experience in STEM education so I think I am entitled to my opinion.

But STEM subjects aren’t the only valuable degrees - are you really saying arts and humanities degrees shouldn’t exist?

Tbh that's fairly standard IME.

Not many schools offer FM GCSE (in fact it’s not a GCSE as such). My DS did A level maths from an 8 at GCSE and it was fine. It was fine for most of his class (two classes actually) apart from someone who got a 6 at GCSE, for whom it was a mare.

of course it’s rubbish that you’re basically saying that the only worthwhile degrees are STEM. But also your original point which was students who don’t get 8 or 9 in maths GCSE shouldn’t go to university.

Well that’s helpful…

But that is the fundamental problem with the idolisation of STEM - grammar no longer matters, balancing arguments no longer matters etc etc etc

You seem determined to misunderstand me and be deliberately rude again despite me taking the time to respond.
Life's too short to keep arguing the same point.

I’m not sure how I can misunderstand if a student doesn’t get 8 or 9 in maths GCSE they may be better off considering more vocational courses such as higher level BTECs or degree apprenticeships. When there are many degrees out there that require only a pass in maths (and English). Nursing and AHP degrees. PGCE’s following “insert a multitude of subjects” to name but a few. Your post frustrates me because you are are intrinsically linking the ability to excel at higher leave maths with achieving academic success (and hopefully post-grad vocation success). Imaging how much we’d lose if ww made grade 8-9 maths GCSE an entry requirement for all degree level studies?

Data and statistics are driving almost everything across every industry. Having a solid grasp of maths is going to serve people more than ever.

This is a massive myth. No matter how numerically inclined you are, you have to work at maths, you can’t wing a Maths A level. To do well you have to put the hours in, understand concepts at a fundamental level, and do lots and lots of practice questions. I can honestly say that, while I worked incredibly hard for my maths A level, I put relatively very little effort into my English Literature A level and ‘winged it’ somewhat (this was nearly 20 years ago, so it could have changed and become much harder to wing).

It’s complete nonsense to suggest that all A levels are equally hard. We all know in our bones that’s not true. Someone studying Maths, Further Maths and Physics can cut their work load in half by switching to Sociology, Sport Science and Media Studies.

I did A level maths and FMs and the 'special' papers (and physics) back in the mid 80s. I did find the maths/fm pretty much a walk in the park, to the extent I didn't learn how to learn maths, which did not prepare me for Cambridge maths.
I don't know how standards have changed since then. I certainly couldn't do my A level papers now.

(I have no comment on things like Media Studies as I have zero knowledge of their content. I suspect I would find it less interesting and therefore harder.)

To my mind it is perhaps easier to get zero marks in a maths question if you just don't know how to start. Whereas with essay subjects you will probably know something relevant.

Saying it's easy isn't the same as saying no work.
But for some people maths can be done with minimum of work- I don't think any essay based subject can.
However as others have said there is the opposite in that I could have probably written a history A-level and picked up a couple of marks, whereas a non-maths student might well not have been able to write anything on a maths A-level.

I did very little work outside lessons. Often the teacher would be explaining and I'd be thinking that it was so obvious that why were they trying to explain. I remember a few times finishing the questions before he'd finished the explanation.
No revision for A-levels and would have expected 100% in both maths and further - and I was good, but not exceptional. Many people were far better than me.
When dsis did her a-levels 3 years before me, when she didn't understand she came to ask me to explain - and I always could.

And you do genuinely get people who just know it. I knew someone who did that right up to his finals at Oxford - degree done in 2 years, age 16, top first with almost double marks of anyone else. I don't think he even bothered going to lectures, just looked at the work for the week, did a bit of reading and could do it.

And I did maths, further maths and Physics (or practical maths as I sometimes called it) and did put a little bit of work into the latter, but not much.
It would have been far far more work (and less enjoyable) to do sport science, sociology and whatever the other one was you suggested, both in and out of lessons.

All the maths I've ever needed I knew by Y9.

It’s generally a good plan to choose the hardest things you will do well at, because in the long term most of the value of qualifications is proving you were smart enough to get them, not the content you learned.

As smartness correlates with success across a very wide range of domains, it’s relevant signal for lots of life paths.

You should choose subjects you, enjoy primarily. Otherwise you end up making choices to impress imaginary people. First it's a subject which might impress a university, then it's a university to impress a potential employer, then a job to impress your parents or friends, then a life which sounds impressive on paper but doesn't bring contentment. Impress yourself.

Strangely I agree with this as well. I guess the problem is that life can only be understood backwards (insight into what you could/should have done, and what you value) but must be lived forward. So having options is still usually the good plan.

This thread has just proved your point OP. I have A Level maths (A) and it's never made any difference to my career or opened doors. On at least three occasions, I've had to do online numerical tests to prove my mathematical ability, rather than my exam results acting as evidence. I didn't need A Level standard maths to pass those. My English qualifications have been far more useful and until very recently (I'm thinking about AI) being able to write well has been a fundamental skill, and frankly one that many fellow graduates are missing. I'd argue learning a language is important for a well rounded education but plenty of people are willing to hold their hands up and claim they just can't learn languages. What we really need is people with a range of different skills.

@Jappled In general it’s quite hard to tell what’s made a difference to what jobs one has got though.

Just like no jobs require a particular university, but there is no doubt that which university you attend shapes what jobs you are offered and what paths are available.

(Not a comment on your specific career obviously. But I worry about the posters who say “well, a pass at GCSE is all that jobs need” therefore there is no benefit to more. They are already cut out of all the jobs that actually expect more, regardless of the HR advert).

Well yes, obviously some jobs do require it but an awful lot don't. All my friends are in professional, decently paid jobs as they head towards their 40s and only one or two did A Level maths.

I don’t believe for a second that anyone can get top marks (100%?!) in subjects like Maths, Further Maths and Physics with a “minimum of work” and “no revision”.

That’s just fanciful. A lie people tell themselves for whatever reason.

As I say, we all know some A levels require far more work than others. To spell it out, someone studying Maths, Further Maths and Physics needs more study hours than if they were studying Sociology, Sport Science and Media Studies.

I don’t know that actually - how do you know? Have you done all those A levels?

Can you not imagine that some subjects come more readily to some? Yes it’s also linked to what you enjoy and want to work at. But I won’t accept the implication that maths A level is harder for everyone than sociology is, again for everyone. Art would be a nightmare for me. For others, French would be a huge challenge.

I did some of those A levels as did most of my peers at university (maths degree), which included some maths geniuses who competed in maths olympiads at a regional and national level. Not one of them would say that they got their top marks in maths and further maths A level with minimal work. Because it’s impossible. You can’t just “know” differential equations and complex numbers, it’s not knowledge one can absorb in day-to-day conversations and every day life. It’s something you have to study and practise extensively to achieve top marks (especially 100% lol).

PP was suggesting that her sister who was 3 years older than her was studying A level maths and came to her for help because she just “knew” despite doing no work towards her mathematical aptitude. This is complete nonsense. There are topics at A level that one will not have come across at KS3. Fine if she was studying A level further maths in her spare time alongside KS3 school work, but she wasn’t because apparently she just “knows” maths with no work and study needed. This is completely fanciful.

You can’t just “know” differential equations and complex numbers, it’s not knowledge one can absorb in day-to-day conversations and every day life. It’s something you have to study and practise extensively to achieve top marks (especially 100% lol).

I ended up doing a maths course a couple of years ago after not having done formal maths for the best part of 30 years (stopped after GCSE). Took me about 30 minutes to become competent with complex numbers - they’re really not that difficult - and not much longer to “get” differential equations.

I can guarantee there are subjects I’d need to work far harder at to get good grades.