Argument over food with my 9 yo dd - please help me calm down.

[Dumbledoresgirl]

DD was a fussy eater as a little child and is still quite fussy now. Aside from the pickiness, lately, she has not been eating her packed lunch, or correction, not eating all of it. Since Christmas, I have made all my own bread and the slices are quite large. Dd kept coming home with her 2 slices of bread hardly touched so I started giving her the smaller ends of the bread. Then she complained that the crusts were too chewy (although she liked that before) so now she only has one large slice of bread.

Even so, lunch comes home uneaten. Sometimes it is the bread, (too much, or yucky filling although she only ever has the filling she chooses) sometimes it is the fruit. Today, for the second time this week, she did not eat all her lunch. Before you say I am giving her too much, she took one slice of bread with Bovril on, one yoghurt and one banana. The banana came back uneaten.

I admit I saw red and told her to sit down and eat the banana (she was asking for a snack so I know she was hungry). She refused. Cue huge row. Me ranting, her screaming and crying. I sent her to her room. I am absolutely seething because I feel she should be able to eat 3 small items at lunchtime, and we really shouldn't be having rows about food now she is 9. It is not as if I give her to things in her lunchbox she does not like.

She wears me down. I also have 3 sons. The oldest and youngest have never been such fussy eaters, and the middle one (who, in his day was the fussiest of all of them) is now thankfully willing to try foods he does not like. Why does dd have to be so difficult? What can I do to a) calm down and b) solve this problem.

PS I made chocolate brownies for them all this pm as I like making a treat they all enjoy for Friday afternoons/ teatime. But this row with dd has taken all the joy out of this treat as I now don't want her to have any of it.

seeker, the problem with kids such as mine DO have free access to healthy stuff but STILL whinge about not being allowed tastier, less healthy stuff .

who here is trying to make kids eat things they dont want to?
that is not my problem, nor dumbledoresgirl's. I never force my children to eat stuff they don't like

my problem is that despite fruit milk and brown bread being available (all of which they like) they continue to reject them and want junkier foods - which I hardly ever have in the house.

They moan and whinge about the fact they are only being offered fruit or milk!

Most of my friends give their kids biscuits and crisps in their lunchbox and when they get home from school. My kids feel hard done by because they dont get that stuff everyday but I refuse to cave in.

my kids don't whinge if they'r eoffered only fruit or milk.

I can't believe how harsh people are being to Dumbledoresgirl, she didn't post aibu to force feed my 9yo mushy banana ffs.

Don't listen Ddg they are talking bollocks. I don't think you'r dd is being controlling and I don't think this one little incident will cause her a lifetime of food issues.

It's really frustrating when children don't eat no matter how hard you try and not let it be a battle.
My dd is 9 this month and rarely eats all her lunch at school, because her best friend never eats hers. She has also started 'going off' healthy foods that she used to love, especially raw veg and fruit.
I have taken to giving her a choice, she chooses either a treat in her lunchbag, or a treat when she gets in from school. She's chosen to have something at school so she gets offered something less appealing when she gets in.
I try not to let it worry me too much because I didn't eat anything secondary school and I survived(my mum once gave me the same apple for a month to see if I actually opened the box) but it isn't easy.

pointydog consider yourself fortunate; that is why you did not need to start a thread like this one.

sorry if this has been said but could she have school dinners~there is a menu given out by the county and she could start by having 2 or 3 per week and building from there.

morning...hmm...I think OP is making her own bread, etc...because it is cheaper than buying, that makes me wonder if they are on a tight budget....and hence school dinner would be a very expensive option....
I certainly could not afford to pay for 3 children schooldinners....

I haven't read whole of long thread, sorry if this is repetitive. Dumbledore could you afford a breadslicer thingie from Argos that would make thin slices from your home-made bread? Actually, a friend uses a meat-slicer (the sort that you cut ham with) to cut thin slices off her home-made bread dual purpose.

And what putting juice rather than whole fruit in the lunch box? My whole fruit-hating DS used to have that to help make up his 5-a-day. Also, he would have cucumber or cress in his sarnies, sometimes.

2 DC eat very small lunches at school. It amuses rather than worries me, though I have been berated by MNers for not being horrified instead . DC have big after school snacks (quality of which I can live with, typically one bag of crisps each and maybe toast and milk or plain porridge or low-sugar cereal).

Eg: DS is 9yo and his lunch is one Penguin bar (this is a recent addition) and half a sarnie (just butter and a little fruit spread on thin bread). He only eats that much after Dinner Lady gave him hell for not eating enough, he insists that some of the other Yr4s eat less than he does, too -- dinner lady just hasn't noticed them.

Luckily DS1 likes his veg, so he makes up his 5-a-day that way.

In comparison DS 4yo eats:
1 cheese string, 1 penguin, 1/4-1/2 sarnie, one large apple juice and maybe a tangerine, too.

Guess which child is overweight? DS4yo.

Hello again everyone. Glad this thread carried on in my absence! I can't reply to every point made, but to all who in some way supported me and understood what I was saying and what this issue is about, and to all those who offered helpful advice, whether I think it is workable or not, thank you.

Also, thank you to all who told me screaming at my dd was wrong - I did of course know that, but it is right that you tell me this again.

To all those who think I force feed my child, force her to eat manky day old lunches, make her eat more food than she can manage or food she does not like, or who think this whole thread is about one uneaten banana....well, thanks anyway. As someone suggested yesterday, today is a new day, the banana is long gone, and I am afraid you are going to have to continue in your misjudgement of me.

Oh but re the school dinner idea: yes it is too expensive, although they occasionally have it. I stopped all my children having school dinners when I saw the size of them and my children cheerfully admitted to me that, even given how small the dinners were, they only ate a tiny proportion of them (and none of the vegetables). It was a shocking waste of my money (which is very tight) and good food. At the time, the children were all begging for packed lunches anyway, so we started packed lunches because they were cheaper and I could ensure food was not wasted (and make a stab at a more balanced diet). DD would now like to return to school dinners but I can't afford it and I know she would continue to waste most of it. I know some of you will say it does not matter if she only eats the potatoes and pudding day in day out, but I am afraid there we must agree to differ.

Breadslicer might be a good idea for other reasons - the dses do keep mangling the loaf when they cut it!

apparently,when a food has been presented lots of times to a child they accept it in the end[largely] and peer pressure~ the children in our school on dinners are less fussy and it has helped my ds to branch out a bit~but we are lucky the dinners are really good.
do you qualify for free dinners?

Morningsun, I often tell my children that, when they are eating something they dislike. Only have to eat it 5 more times and you will love it!

Seriously though, yes I do think that if they eat a bit of something every so often it helps them to accept the food, even like it. This same fussy dd will now choose to have more sprouts on her plate!

No, we don't qualify for free school meals.

morningsun - my mother tried that one for years on me and my sister. Didn't convince me to like kidneys, mushrooms or many of the other things I found repellent. Although as an adult I am prepared to have soup that isn't Heinz tomato.

I don't understand what harm people think their children will come to if they eat a very restricted diet for a while. Of course McDonald's 3 times a day for 6 years isn't a good thing, but a month or two of potatoes and pudding for lunch every day isn't going to do any harm, honestly. And once all food angst is removed for a while I bet she starts eating different things.

Yes and I guess a toddler will eventually grow up and decide for themselves to poo in the toilet rather than on the floor, but does that mean you leave them to work that out for themselves and don't attempt to sit them on the loo when you see they are about to poo?

If they see other people using the loo and if the loo is available to them, then yes they will decide for themselves to use the loo. I don't think it's necessary to have any angst about potty training either!

But it is the time you would have to wait before they got the idea....

I didn't angst over potty training either, but I did try to limit the times I cleaned poo off carpet or pants.

DD is 9, not 4. I think she has had long enough to work out that other people eat other foods. She even can tell you, courtesy of healthy eating lessons at school, what she should be eating. But she still needs me to ensure she does (occasionally) eat those things.

I think we just have different parenting styles seeker

I agree, we do. But on this subject you seem to be saying you need to try something different. And I'm suggesting that (on this subject and with this child) my way might work when yours doesn't seem to be. It does sound as if your way is not suiting you and your dd at the moment - isn't that why you posted in the first place?

Seeker...my ds was for a long time (possibly a year) that fussy and no gentle techniques helped to encourage him, hence us using that harsh method on him...and I suppose our success with using it would tie in rather lovely with the theory that, if you eat somehting often enough you start to like it....

like I mentioned earlier, my son still won't eat everything, and I would never expect him too, but he is willing to give things a try and that is worth a lot....even if it is the tiniest bit...
and of course he has discovered that many things he previously refused to even try are things he really likes...

Its about TRAINING whether we are using toileting or food habits- you train a child to recognise the signs he needs to wee or poo,and continually encourage and offer the potty and so eventually he can recognise the signs and go to the toilet himself,same with eating you TRAIN a child what he needs to eat to be healthy.

All my children (fortunately) have been good eaters but I will still say before they have a packet of crisps on arriving home from school,have you eaten your lunch? stomachs cant go long periods with no fuel and if they havent eaten their sandwich or fruit etc I will suggest a sandwich before a treat.

Thats responsible parenting imo, same with fizzy pop my children would drink that all the time but I limit it and ask that they drink milk,juice and water in between.

If you have a fussy eater (and I have first hand experience of this having done a small part of my training with young children with eating disorders) there is often methods used that you wouldnt dream to do- an example a small child aged 6 would only eat breakfast cereal as new tastes were introduced he would sob and howl so much so it was distressing for us all - a much longer time served nursery nurse would say in a strict voice - ok you can half the mini cereal i will do it now- or you can try a taste of xxxxx thing and I will give you the whole mini packet then she would count 1-2-3-4-5 by which time he would try and sometimes eat......but just cos he ate it that day didnt mean he would the next.

A faddy child is a nightmare and I totally sympathise.

Now that neatly encapsulates two diametrically different schools of parenting. I think it's about LEARNING, not about TRAINING. You don't need to train a child to use the loo - they watch and learn and copy. Same with eating - provide a good role model for them to emulate and they will learn. It may take time, you need to be patient and hold your nerve, but it will happen.

Well seeker Im afraid we will have to agree to disagree.

having said that ...I have 3 children all of whom were dry day and night by 2 and who will eat a rich variety of food.

Incidentally I never bought firguards.safety gates/plug socket covers or moved ornaments I trained my children.

When we got our puppy within a week he was totally house trained yet again I trainedhim.

training works well in my house .

Necessary for puppies. Not necessary for children. That's what distinguishes humans from other animals!

I also have clean, dry, food eating children, and I think I can safely say that we didn't spend a single moment of their precious childhood years training them. They watched and learned.

why do you think professionals call it toilet training??????

DG I think it is very easy to let food issues get on top of you, and as someone said earlier it is not all about eating (food often = love in our culture, so a child rejecting your food, can be perceived as rejecting your love - can be very hurtful)

i am sure we have all done daft things in the heat of the moment so the banana / shouting / room issue is best put behind you as you know perfectly well

this is how i see the issue:

your dd has a very small appetite i am guessing - some children do - and is probably one of those super taster people that makes her very fussy about what flavours / textures she can eat
i was a fussy eater as a child and can really sympathise with anyone who has trouble eating what they are 'meant' to! it is a horrible thing and not something that a child usually does on purpose
by the way, about the only foods i can now not eat as an adult were those i was FORCED to eat as a child
i have got used to almost all the other strong flavours that i could not bear as a child - slowly, but i got there in the end

so
i think the most important things about healthy eating are:
enjoy your food
share enjoyable meals with others
eat a good variety of foods
eat when you are hungry
stop when you are full

if your dd is full at lunchtime after having 1 slice of bread then she should stop eating
she shouldn't force herself to eat any more because you want her to, or because she might be hungry later, or because the dinner ladies tell her to, or because she needs to eat fruit to be healthy
she should STOP because she is hungry
so that is good

if she is then hungry again when she gets home from school, this is fine
it doesn't mean she should have eaten more lunch
i eat lunch and get hungry again a few hours later
that is how our bodies are designed to work - especially children's bodies that burn fuel quickly
they aren't designed to be bludgeoned with an enormous midday meal into feeling no hunger till teatime

so
as she was hungry when she got home, she should then be able to choose something else she likes to eat
not a warm squishy banana obviously
no-one wants to eat that
the fact she didn't eat it at lunchtime doesn't mean she has to eat it now - she was FULL at lunchtime
now she's hungry
if you want them only to eat fruit after school then don't make brownies
if you want them to have a treat after school then let dd have it also
if you are saying that she has to eat the banana before she can have a brownie - what is that teaching her? she will eat the banana and be full again, but then she will eat the brownie, because that is the only time you are going to allow her to have it
so you are teaching her to carry on eating when she is already full
and specifically, to eat until she is full, and THEN to eat sweet things ON TOP of what she has eaten
this is precisely how people fail to listen to the feelings in their stomach and over eat - by being taught to ignore the healthy and sensible messages their bodies are giving them

if you have a very fussy eater in the house then it is probably best not to have treats like brownies around much, especially if you are going to feel het up about her having them when she hasn't eaten what you consider to be enough healthy stuff
if you have a vast majority of healthy food around, then your dd can control her own eating - i think it is great that she makes and chooses her own lunch etc - you are doing the right thing there AFAIAC
the problem is you choosing the AMOUNT she eats
you can't feel how her stomach feels! she should be choosing when to stop eating
if you don't want her to have brownies don't make them
or just have them at weekends maybe

the other thing i agreed with was the poster who said fruit is not that important - vegetables are the best things to eat
if you and she hate fruit, don't eat it - or just have a couple of oranges a week or something
eating lots of fresh veg would be better
i don't want to say "oh you will give her eating problems" but i would imagine the best way to put someone off fruit for life is to make them eat it when they don't want it!

i hope some of this might help
i don't have 9 year olds but i do think a lot about food and how to help children enjoy it
i think it is great you want her to have a healthy diet and are spending energy finding ways to encourage it