Please or to access all these features

Feminism: chat

The Bluestocking Pub, where we continue to read about gerbils nobly and bravely working undercover in the Fen.

1000 replies

AsWithGlad · 20/08/2026 15:44

Welcome to The Bluestocking, the best (perhaps only) online women's pub. Nothing in the food or drink can harm you, everything is served by a very enthusiastic crew of gerbils, who enjoy doing this, and any curious menfolk are welcome at the Staunch Ally down the road.

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5564959-the-bluestocking-womens-pub-in-which-we-wait-excitedly-for-the-next-instalment-of-goseis-adventures

OP posts:
Thread gallery
104
MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 09:17

inkymoose · 01/09/2026 01:17

Quite clear! That's why the image was so discombobulating .... in it, the boots were on top of the table Blush 👀
. . . and I called the AI out on its representation, not the story teller Flowers because AI is often wayward and a bit dim, in my experience.

I love the stories and Swashy taking her boots off was great. I'm sure she put them down under the table.

AH! I hadn't noticed. The images rarely portray the truth. Glossy's dark room looks like a shelving unit for jams.

I think the boot on the table is probably a novelty cruet-holder...

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 09:21

inkymoose · 01/09/2026 02:15

I read this after responding to Myrtle.

It all makes sense to me now. What a cynical system, deliberately failing people so that they may give up. I had some experience helping people to apply for DLA when that was still a thing, and people were advised to expect to have to appeal and attend a hearing even then.

It's the assumption that most people are faking that gets me, along with the administrators/assessors simply not caring.

It's immensely frustrating because she does come across as very friendly and quite bright. But she has processing problems that become apparent when you spend more than a few hours in her company. It's like they've ignored all the medical evidence over 30 years, as well as her school record and employer reports, that all independently and separately report her issues.

AsWithGlad · 01/09/2026 09:24

EmpressaurusKitty · 01/09/2026 05:28

I’m clearly too young to know Pixie & Dixie - I was thinking of Scrooge’s mice in The Muppet Christmas Carol. ‘No cheeses for us meeces’.

Edited

Yes, that’s the picture currently on the right in my later post at 00.18.
Great minds, we have, thinking alike.

Three references: two in the Scrooge song and one Pixie and Dixie.

Earlier in the Scrooge song, picture on the left, it goes
He charges folk a fortune for
his dark and draughty houses
As poor folk live in misery
It’s even worse for mouses.

The song is so clever, and the whole film wonderful, in my opinion.

OP posts:
PastaAllaNorma · 01/09/2026 09:38

EmpressaurusKitty · 31/08/2026 20:57

I’m listening to Sylvester, by Georgette Heyer, & it’s just introduced me to the word Betwattled. 😍

(Not Bet-wattled, Be-twattled).

Edited

"Why Am I Not Allowed An Egg"
"Ridiculous Gudgeon"
And the outrage over the stolen tassel. And Chien the dog due to a translation misunderstanding.

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2026 09:45

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 09:12

I'm pleased I can represent her.

It is so awful that they don't care. I thought the high rejection rate was because people were not filling in the application form to say how their disability affected them, just saying "I have one leg, I'm disabled" (I'm being flippant). But I filled in her form in really great detail about her issues.

She said everything again in the meeting AND the assessor WROTE IT DOWN in the Functional History and still said she was fine. 😡

Until you actually experience it yourself it's hard to comprehend how fucked up the system is.

There is some truth in the not filling the forms in properly, my neighbour had cancer, along with some other nasty illnesses and disabilities, and was found to be perfectly fit and healthy. Once I'd pointed her in the right direction of how to fill the form in she was given PIP.

The fact you have filled the form in properly, with plenty of info and evidence, will help you at the MR/tribunal stage (they rely on most people not having the energy or the wherewithal to do the mandatory review and tribunal stages). Hopefully you'll get someone who recognises at the MR stage that in this instance they messed up and it's going to end at a tribunal so they'll sort it at MR.

Worse is that originally the assessor may well have agreed your DSD scored points for things and then their manager may have overruled them.

The turnover of PIP assessors is high purely because having to lie about how ill/disabled the claimant in front of you is soul destroying.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 09:56

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2026 09:45

Until you actually experience it yourself it's hard to comprehend how fucked up the system is.

There is some truth in the not filling the forms in properly, my neighbour had cancer, along with some other nasty illnesses and disabilities, and was found to be perfectly fit and healthy. Once I'd pointed her in the right direction of how to fill the form in she was given PIP.

The fact you have filled the form in properly, with plenty of info and evidence, will help you at the MR/tribunal stage (they rely on most people not having the energy or the wherewithal to do the mandatory review and tribunal stages). Hopefully you'll get someone who recognises at the MR stage that in this instance they messed up and it's going to end at a tribunal so they'll sort it at MR.

Worse is that originally the assessor may well have agreed your DSD scored points for things and then their manager may have overruled them.

The turnover of PIP assessors is high purely because having to lie about how ill/disabled the claimant in front of you is soul destroying.

That really is awful. Why are they having to lie? This assessor was via Serco. Where is the incentive to fail people?

Personally I think they need to be penalised for the high overturn rate, but in a way that doesn't incentivise them to pass everyone.

How do you know so much? It really has been heartbreaking and demoralising for her. We have spent 10 years trying to encourage her in what she can do, and this process is focused so much on what she can't do. She is equally sanguine about it and devastated.

AsWithGlad · 01/09/2026 10:05

MyrtleLion · 31/08/2026 21:18

I'm about to be very boring about government regulations, but this refers to the legal test that assessors are requied to carry out on applications for the Personal Independence Payments. I am not a lawyer, though I studied Law at university, and I love reading regulations, Bye-Laws and governing documents. Hopefully you will be able to follow.

The legal test for whether a claimant can carry out ten individual daily activities and two mobility activities is this

Regulation 4(2A) of the Social Security (Personal Independence Payment) Regulations 2013 provides that where a claimant's ability to carry out an activity is assessed, they are "to be assessed as satisfying a descriptor only if" they can do so

  • safely,
  • to an acceptable standard,
  • repeatedly, and
  • within a reasonable time period.
These four requirements are colloquially known as the reliability test.

Regulation 4(4), defines the individual terms, aside from acceptable standard as follows:

  • "safely" means in a manner unlikely to cause harm to the Claimant or another person, during or after the activity
  • "repeatedly" means as often as the activity is reasonably required to be completed
  • "reasonable time period" means no more than twice as long as the maximum period a person without the relevant condition would normally take.

For each activity a number of points from 0-8 can be allocated, and the regulations set out how many points are available for subsections of the activity.

For example, activity 10 Making budgeting decisions sets out the points as follows,
a. Can manage complex budgeting decisions unaided. 0
b. Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make complex budgeting decisions. 2
c. Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make simple budgeting decisions. 4
d. Cannot make any budgeting decisions at all. 6

So you would imagine that a decision letter and an assessment report would measure the claimant against the reliability test and would justify why a number of points would be allocated. So if someone could not manage their money, safely, repeatedly, to an acceptable standard and within a reasonable time, the report would mention these things.

I am not going to give details of my DSD's report, but I am going to mention that the following words:

  • "safely,"
  • "acceptable standard,"
  • "reasonable time period"
do not appear at all, across all thirty pages.

repeated does appear once, but in the context of my DSD repeating aspects of her school education.

The word "reliably" appears 14 times, but every single instance is the assessor's own conclusory phrase, for example "should be able to reliably [undertake daily living activity], without any reasoning tied to the four elements of the test.

I want to express my shock, disgust and incredulity that the report has not engaged with the actual legal test at all.

So far I have this sentence in the appeal letter
It appears that neither the assessor nor the decision-maker, actually engaged with the test. If that is the case, then this is shocking.

Except I want a stronger more horrified word for shocking.

All comments welcome, but I won't be going into the details of what else was written or her disability. I am still really fucking furious and I've been working on this appeal for three weeks.

In similar circumstances I’d try to think
What would Naomi Cunningham say?

Surprising? It’s more temperate, and you may not want that.

I was reading something yesterday, which I have often read before, that something like 91% of assessments which fail at the first hurdle are upheld on appeal.
Failing so many is simply a way of saving money.
The context was different (assessing children with a properly diagnosed autism spectrum disorder for an EHC plan) but I would not be surprised* if the same thing’s happening here.

So, it’s frustrating and just plain wrong not to have PIP accepted, but not unexpected however clear and strongly worded the claim was.

*see, here’s me automatically applying the word. This is most probably because I listened to Michael Foran talking about the grounds of appeal in Peggie v NHS Fife on Sunday, and have been thinking about it since. I think the grounds were probably written by Naomi C, Charlotte Elves, Charlotte Gribbon and Ben (can’t remember his surname but he’s joined the team.)

Is Gribbon the gerbil the Bluestocking’s resident legal expert?

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2026 10:13

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 09:56

That really is awful. Why are they having to lie? This assessor was via Serco. Where is the incentive to fail people?

Personally I think they need to be penalised for the high overturn rate, but in a way that doesn't incentivise them to pass everyone.

How do you know so much? It really has been heartbreaking and demoralising for her. We have spent 10 years trying to encourage her in what she can do, and this process is focused so much on what she can't do. She is equally sanguine about it and devastated.

I am aware that I no doubt sound like a conspiracy nut with the following, however when you start looking properly at how the contracts are set up, how they are paid, how the assessors are treated etc etc it becomes obvious why the system is such a mess.

They have targets to hit. Despite the DWP periodically stating there are no targets, evidence has been found that there is indeed targets.

Because there is no connection, and therefore no come back, on Serco/ Crapita etc with regards whether a decision is later reversed at MR or tribunal, there is no incentive to do the assessments properly.

Instead Serco's only incentive is to get through as many assessments per day as possible. So, do you do a good thorough job? Or a quick sloppy job?

I was in the situation your DSD is now in, and the wait between nothing to see here you are completely fit and healthy to tribunal left me with ample time to read up a lot on what was going on. And what was actually going on was horrifying.

Whilst that was now a good while ago I've not seen anything since to make me think it's any different now.

WearyAuldWumman · 01/09/2026 10:19

EmpressaurusKitty · 01/09/2026 05:28

I’m clearly too young to know Pixie & Dixie - I was thinking of Scrooge’s mice in The Muppet Christmas Carol. ‘No cheeses for us meeces’.

Edited

It was Pixie & Dixie that immediately came to my mind.

WearyAuldWumman · 01/09/2026 10:20

Chersfrozenface · 01/09/2026 08:57

The Muppet Christmas Carol is a Christmas tradition in our house. It has to be played every year.

As for Pixie and Dixie and Mr Jinks.... At one time during my childhood we each got one weekly comic and mine was Huckleberry Hound Weekly. Yeah, I'm old.

The heart is for Huckleberry Hound - not our age.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 10:22

AsWithGlad · 01/09/2026 10:05

In similar circumstances I’d try to think
What would Naomi Cunningham say?

Surprising? It’s more temperate, and you may not want that.

I was reading something yesterday, which I have often read before, that something like 91% of assessments which fail at the first hurdle are upheld on appeal.
Failing so many is simply a way of saving money.
The context was different (assessing children with a properly diagnosed autism spectrum disorder for an EHC plan) but I would not be surprised* if the same thing’s happening here.

So, it’s frustrating and just plain wrong not to have PIP accepted, but not unexpected however clear and strongly worded the claim was.

*see, here’s me automatically applying the word. This is most probably because I listened to Michael Foran talking about the grounds of appeal in Peggie v NHS Fife on Sunday, and have been thinking about it since. I think the grounds were probably written by Naomi C, Charlotte Elves, Charlotte Gribbon and Ben (can’t remember his surname but he’s joined the team.)

Is Gribbon the gerbil the Bluestocking’s resident legal expert?

No, I think I need Octavia Briefcase.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 10:25

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2026 10:13

I am aware that I no doubt sound like a conspiracy nut with the following, however when you start looking properly at how the contracts are set up, how they are paid, how the assessors are treated etc etc it becomes obvious why the system is such a mess.

They have targets to hit. Despite the DWP periodically stating there are no targets, evidence has been found that there is indeed targets.

Because there is no connection, and therefore no come back, on Serco/ Crapita etc with regards whether a decision is later reversed at MR or tribunal, there is no incentive to do the assessments properly.

Instead Serco's only incentive is to get through as many assessments per day as possible. So, do you do a good thorough job? Or a quick sloppy job?

I was in the situation your DSD is now in, and the wait between nothing to see here you are completely fit and healthy to tribunal left me with ample time to read up a lot on what was going on. And what was actually going on was horrifying.

Whilst that was now a good while ago I've not seen anything since to make me think it's any different now.

I want to work for the DWP writing the contracts. I would lick them into shape with incentives and penalties all over the place.

And actually, given how many are overturned, the cost of the Mandatory Reconsiderations and Tribunals must be a huge part of the welfare bill.

It doesn't help that people think anyone with learning or neurological conditions are all scroungers.

AsWithGlad · 01/09/2026 10:29

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 10:22

No, I think I need Octavia Briefcase.

They could work together?

Sandie Peggie had 2 barristers plus the instructing solicitor, and now barrister Ben has joined the team. 4 excellent legal people.

There’s no harm in having 2 legal gerbils and you on the case.

OP posts:
EmpressaurusKitty · 01/09/2026 10:29

AsWithGlad · 01/09/2026 09:24

Yes, that’s the picture currently on the right in my later post at 00.18.
Great minds, we have, thinking alike.

Three references: two in the Scrooge song and one Pixie and Dixie.

Earlier in the Scrooge song, picture on the left, it goes
He charges folk a fortune for
his dark and draughty houses
As poor folk live in misery
It’s even worse for mouses.

The song is so clever, and the whole film wonderful, in my opinion.

Edited

I’ve been to the Christmas singalong version at the Prince Charles Cinema a couple of times. Pure joy.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 10:30

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2026 10:13

I am aware that I no doubt sound like a conspiracy nut with the following, however when you start looking properly at how the contracts are set up, how they are paid, how the assessors are treated etc etc it becomes obvious why the system is such a mess.

They have targets to hit. Despite the DWP periodically stating there are no targets, evidence has been found that there is indeed targets.

Because there is no connection, and therefore no come back, on Serco/ Crapita etc with regards whether a decision is later reversed at MR or tribunal, there is no incentive to do the assessments properly.

Instead Serco's only incentive is to get through as many assessments per day as possible. So, do you do a good thorough job? Or a quick sloppy job?

I was in the situation your DSD is now in, and the wait between nothing to see here you are completely fit and healthy to tribunal left me with ample time to read up a lot on what was going on. And what was actually going on was horrifying.

Whilst that was now a good while ago I've not seen anything since to make me think it's any different now.

Should I state how many points we think she should have been awarded? Does that help?

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2026 10:32

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 10:25

I want to work for the DWP writing the contracts. I would lick them into shape with incentives and penalties all over the place.

And actually, given how many are overturned, the cost of the Mandatory Reconsiderations and Tribunals must be a huge part of the welfare bill.

It doesn't help that people think anyone with learning or neurological conditions are all scroungers.

I would want to burn the DWP to the ground and start again.

When I was originally looking at all this I came across a list of names of people who had died after the DWP had got the decision wrong on ESA/DLA claims. An old friend of mine was on the list. She had been denied ESA and the DWP had decided she was not depressed. Her body was found in the river months after she had committed suicide.

The system is fucked.

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2026 10:34

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 10:30

Should I state how many points we think she should have been awarded? Does that help?

Yes. I'd list all the ones you disagree with and what you think she should have got for that question and why.

AsWithGlad · 01/09/2026 10:35

Boiledbeetle · 01/09/2026 10:13

I am aware that I no doubt sound like a conspiracy nut with the following, however when you start looking properly at how the contracts are set up, how they are paid, how the assessors are treated etc etc it becomes obvious why the system is such a mess.

They have targets to hit. Despite the DWP periodically stating there are no targets, evidence has been found that there is indeed targets.

Because there is no connection, and therefore no come back, on Serco/ Crapita etc with regards whether a decision is later reversed at MR or tribunal, there is no incentive to do the assessments properly.

Instead Serco's only incentive is to get through as many assessments per day as possible. So, do you do a good thorough job? Or a quick sloppy job?

I was in the situation your DSD is now in, and the wait between nothing to see here you are completely fit and healthy to tribunal left me with ample time to read up a lot on what was going on. And what was actually going on was horrifying.

Whilst that was now a good while ago I've not seen anything since to make me think it's any different now.

A very bad situation re Serco but unfortunately true.

I wondered if they were the company that should have been doing security for the 2012 Olympics but close to the time looked so inadequate that the police and armed forces were brought in to do it? Ah, Wikipedia tells me it was G4S, but it’s the same principle.

OP posts:
DauntlessDamson · 01/09/2026 10:35

My mind is boggling this morning. Huge sympathies to Myrtle and her DSD wrangling with the pillocks staff in the DWP.

Trying to separate that story from Pixie and Dixie Christmas singalongs about meeces and Sylvester and his precocious nephew.😂

I'm going out now for a while to clear my head!

MarieDeGournay · 01/09/2026 11:19

DauntlessDamson · 01/09/2026 10:35

My mind is boggling this morning. Huge sympathies to Myrtle and her DSD wrangling with the pillocks staff in the DWP.

Trying to separate that story from Pixie and Dixie Christmas singalongs about meeces and Sylvester and his precocious nephew.😂

I'm going out now for a while to clear my head!

Thank you for summing it up so well Damson, I've been sitting here catching up on yesterday PMs and this morning's posts, and wondering how to do them all justice, given the range.. you've summed it up so well, so I'll join you in sending Flowers to Myrtle and DSD, and retrospective Flowers to Boily who has been through the same nightmare.
Wishing you success, Myrtle, and how lucky your DSD is to have you going in to bat for her!

When they discovered the remains of King Richard III in a car park in Leicester [''What? they want to build a car park on the site of the Greyfriars Priory? Over my dead body!"] some wag in the disability rights movement posted a picture of the remains with 'He's been passed fit to work by Serco😏'

[yes yes, pipe down Pedantry Corner- I know it was a different company doing the assessments back then, did you never hear of poetic licence?🙄]

"And in other news...''
of course the plural of moose should be meese, and of mouse, meeses. We hold these truths to be self-evident, innit?😁

You know the mysterious crack in the stained glass - maybe it contains..........
da da DAAAAAH:
crack.
An ingenious way of smuggling drugs?😉

PastaAllaNorma · 01/09/2026 11:28

Myrtle, I'm so sorry, your poor DSD. My DS2 has refused to apply for exactly that reason despite his psychiatrist saying he really must. The process is humiliating, grinds you down and seems to include compulsory rejection as part of the process.Today I have finally been cleared to go on the list for a knee replacement.

This has involved years and years of pain and waiting to be 'old enough' plus a lot of weight loss to be considered viable.

I'm so relieved I could cry.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 11:37

Oh, @PastaAllaNorma! I am so pleased for you! I really hope you don't have to wait long for the operation.

And thank you for your support. We are really thinking of the difference that having the PIP would make. She is currently signed off sick from job hunting while was also apply for the Work Capability Assessment. The difference in her is astonishing. She is so much less stressed and tired and I can finally see the lovely young woman she is - she also has her faults, and some are beyond annoying - but it means I can see that the toll of looking for work (and when was in employment) is a huge burden.

It's not about the money, it's about her knowing she has support and doesn't have to jump through all the required hoops.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 01/09/2026 11:44

I am so sorry that you are having such an awful time with the DWP, @MyrtleLion. I am sure they refuse people, and force them through the appeals process because they know that some people will just give up and go away, so even if they do end up reversing their decision on some of the people who do appeal, they've still saved a bit of money - apart from the costs of funding the appeals process, of course!

I was very lucky, when I applied for the Scottish version of PIP - my claim went through smoothly, and was granted first time - and the more I see of how difficult it is being made for some claimants, the more I realise how lucky I was.

MyrtleLion · 01/09/2026 11:49

Thank you so much. Her issues are just not apparent in a 90 minute meeting. Her comments can be quite funny because she doesn't understand basic things. For example she has had fit notes signing her off sick for two months, but the latest one was for three months. She asked if she should ask the doctor to reissue it. She thought it was a mistake, bless her. The Walrus and I laughed our heads off (she texted us), but also thought it was endearing.

These are the kinds of misunderstandings she has, and she often doesn't tell us - she thought hardback meant bigger books, until I took down from my bookshelf a small hardback and a large paperback. And then she said, is that it? and was really annoyed that she had misunderstood something so basic for over 30 years.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 01/09/2026 13:27

I am feeling a little bit successful, because I have done a bit of decluttering. I've been through my cookbooks, and got rid of a number of them - ones I'm not going to use again. It's a drop in the ocean of what needs doing, but it is a start.

Dh and I keep talking about possibly needing to downsize in the future, but if we want to do that, we need to drastically reduce the amount of stuff we own - the problem is we are very good at talking about decluttering, but absolutely shite at actually doing it.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread