Do titles matter?

[Cheeseandolivesplease]

I had this debate on a general board and the over-riding consensus was that "titles are irrelevant" (insofar as it makes no difference if you choose to be a Mrs HisName).
I vehemently disagree.
Someone suggested I'd get a different perspective on the Feminism board so here I am.
Is the fact that I am a married Ms MyName a "complete irrelevance" to fighting against the patriarchy do you think?
Do female honorifics matter?

@ExpectMore Because I would imagine feminists think differently about this than on a general board?

But isn’t it non-feminists whose opinions matter more in this instance as it’s those you’d be seeking to influence and change? Turning to feminist corner to hear what you want to hear is like preaching to the choir

Op your other thread hasn't gone quite to plan so you are looking for further validation,and differing views are still not validating you, just because you chose to be Ms doesn't make you a "better" feminist or married woman sticking your fingers up to the patriarchy.

I debated OP on her other thread. The general consensus was that she was extremely judgemental and offensive to women who had chosen the Mrs title by suggesting we were uneducated and propping up the patriarchy.

She still wears wedding rings and was unable to answer why this symbol of ownership was acceptable to her.

I also pointed out that women judging women for their choices was upholding the patriarchy much more than going by “Mrs.” She refused to address that too.

Hopefully we can get some answer this time around…..

@ExpectMore Non-feminists tend to be the ones "proud to be a Mrs."

@RomaRoamer I did answer the question re my wedding ring but you wouldn't accept the answer I gave.
You also didn't "like" the research re Ms and its correlation with education I provided.

That’s not true at all.
You never answered why wearing a symbol of ownership was acceptable but going by Mrs was not.

I also had no problem with any studies showing a correlation between women who choose Ms having higher levels of education. Correlation isn’t causation.

My problem was with you using this information to suggest women who choose Mrs were thicker than those who don’t. I told you that having a degree doesn’t automatically equate to higher levels of intelligence.

You also protested how offensive you had been and challenged someone to report you so neutral MN could decide. Someone did and MN deleted your comment.

So you’ve started the exact same thread to spout the same vitriol. Why?

@RomaRoamer Would you be able to provide me with any research to suggest the contrary? To support your argument at all?
Titles may not matter to you, but they do to many. Including myself.
What is going to persuade me to agree with you?

I personally don't like the idea that a woman should be able to be identified as married or not by their title, whereas men it's always the same.

But it's a personal choice. I get called Miss sometimes and it doesn't bother me. But I would rather go by Ms.

I would rarely use a title in correspondence with anyone really. If just put their full name and then first name in the salutation. I wouldn't assume a woman was Mrs because she was married. So if I had to pick one for someone else without knowing I'd go for Ms.

Research to prove what? That having a degree doesn’t automatically equate to higher levels of overall intelligence? You need to be more specific.

The pattern in the UK is the same as elsewhere: having a degree correlates with higher average cognitive ability but does not equate to it.
Key UK evidence
Large British studies show a strong link between cognitive ability and educational outcomes:
• In a prospective study of over 70,000 English children, general intelligence (g) measured at age 11 correlated r = 0.81 with a latent measure of GCSE achievement at age 16 across 25 subjects. Intelligence predicted performance in every subject (strongest for maths and English). At the mean level of g, about 58% achieved five or more GCSEs at A*–C; one standard deviation higher raised this to ~91%, while one SD lower dropped it to ~16%.
• British birth cohort studies (1958 National Child Development Study and 1970 British Cohort Study) consistently show that higher childhood cognitive scores strongly predict later educational attainment (school-leaving qualifications, A-levels, and degrees). Mean cognitive ability rises monotonically with qualification level. Social background still matters independently, but cognitive ability accounts for a substantial share of the differences.
• UK Biobank and related analyses confirm positive associations between fluid intelligence / verbal-numerical reasoning and educational attainment, with genetic and environmental contributions overlapping.
Selection and expansion effects
Higher ability people are more likely to enter and complete higher education. However, the massive expansion of UK university places from the 1960s onward reduced the average cognitive ability of graduates. One analysis found the mean cognitive ability of college graduates declined by roughly 0.13 standard deviations between the 1960s and early 2000s. The new graduates were still above the non-graduate average of earlier cohorts, but the selectivity of the degree itself weakened. Advantaged students of more modest ability benefited disproportionately compared with high-ability students from disadvantaged backgrounds.
Causal effects of education
The same meta-analytic evidence that applies internationally (including UK data in some designs) finds that each additional year of schooling is associated with roughly 1–5 IQ-point gains on cognitive tests (overall estimate around 3 points). These are real but modest effects that do not erase the large pre-existing differences or make a degree a reliable marker of high intelligence.
Practical takeaway for the UK
• Degree holders have higher average cognitive ability than the general population or those with only secondary qualifications.
• The distributions overlap heavily. Many people without degrees score well above the graduate mean, and many graduates score near or below the population average.
• A degree reflects cognitive ability plus conscientiousness, family resources, institutional quality, subject choice, and persistence. It is a credential, not a pure intelligence measure.
• Childhood cognitive scores remain among the strongest predictors of later educational success in British data, but social inequalities persist even after accounting for ability.
In short, the UK evidence reinforces that education and intelligence are related but not the same thing. A degree raises the probability of above-average cognitive ability on average; it does not guarantee or define it.

Here are the main studies underlying the UK (and general) findings on degrees and intelligence:
Strong predictive link in the UK
Deary, I. J., Strand, S., Smith, P., & Fernandes, C. (2007).
Intelligence and educational achievement.
Intelligence, 35(1), 13–21.
• Prospective study of >70,000 English children.
• Cognitive ability (g from the Cognitive Abilities Test) measured at age 11.
• GCSE results in 25 subjects at age 16.
• Latent correlation between g and overall educational achievement: 0.81.
• g predicted success in every subject (strongest in maths and English).
• At average g, ~58% achieved five or more A*–C GCSEs; +1 SD → ~91%; –1 SD → ~16%.
This is one of the largest and cleanest UK demonstrations that childhood general intelligence strongly predicts later educational outcomes.
Causal effect of education on IQ scores
Ritchie, S. J., & Tucker-Drob, E. M. (2018).
How much does education improve intelligence? A meta-analysis.
Psychological Science, 29(8), 1358–1369.
• Meta-analysis of 142 effect sizes from 42 datasets (>600,000 participants).
• Three quasi-experimental designs (control for prior intelligence, compulsory schooling reforms, school-entry age cutoffs).
• Additional year of education associated with 1–5 IQ points (overall estimate ≈ 3.4 points).
• Effects appear across cognitive domains and can persist into later life.
• Includes UK data (e.g., British Cohort Study analyses).
This is the key paper showing education produces modest genuine gains in cognitive test scores, not only selection.
UK higher-education expansion and graduate ability
Ichino, A., et al. (papers using Understanding Society data, circa 2022–2025).
Titles include variations of College education, intelligence, and disadvantage: policy lessons from the UK in 1960–2004 (or “Graduation nation…”).
• Tracked the large expansion of UK university places after the 1960s Robbins Report.
• Average cognitive ability of graduates declined by about 0.13 standard deviations between the 1960s and early 2000s.
• Expansion mainly pulled in lower-ability students from more advantaged backgrounds rather than high-ability students from disadvantaged ones.
• Non-graduates’ average ability also fell slightly, consistent with the new graduates sitting between the old graduate and non-graduate means.
Supporting British cohort evidence
Analyses from the 1958 National Child Development Study (NCDS) and 1970 British Cohort Study (BCS70) repeatedly show:
• Clear gradients of childhood cognitive scores by later educational attainment (no qualifications → O-levels/GCSEs → A-levels → degree).
• Cognitive ability accounts for a substantial but incomplete share of social-class differences in educational success.
• Social background effects remain after controlling for early ability.
These cohort studies provide the longitudinal backbone for UK claims about ability, education, and later outcomes.
Summary of what the studies collectively show
• Childhood general intelligence is a powerful predictor of educational attainment in Britain.
• Education itself produces small but real gains on cognitive tests.
• Expanding access reduced the average ability of the graduate population.
• Degrees therefore raise the probability of above-average cognitive ability on average, but the distributions overlap substantially and a degree is not equivalent to higher intelligence.

@RomaRoamer Thanks. I'm off to work now so don't have time to look (I appreciate that must have taken you some time), but will look over it later.

So you ask for studies then say you don’t have time to address them. That has been your modus operandi in both this thread and the one before. Swerving questions, deflecting with unrelated questions of your own and ignoring the things you can’t answer.

AI is a useful tool. It took a minute to provide you with that information. But please do look at these studies later, you will discover just how wrong you have been these last couple of days. Hopefully you’ll show some contrition afterwards too.

@RomaRoamer Are you also a working mother? I'm sure you will appreciate we can't spend all day on MN arguing these things and there are other priorities?
But just quickly, AI is not a reliable data source.

I moved to a country that doesn't use titles anymore (except professional ones, of course) and I much prefer it, everyone is just their name.

How about the case of two lesbians in a same sex marriage that refer to themselves as “Mrs” (independent of which surname(s) they choose) as a sign that they’re in a committed marriage to one another. Are they non-feminists and / or part of the patriarchy?

@RomaRoamer I really don't want to patronise you by explaining the differences between a teacher and a tutor.
AI is unreliable and you "looked it up in seconds" so no - I don't take it seriously.
No more to say.
Enjoy your week off with your kids.

I have a degree and masters - no idea about intelligence level but chose to take DH surname and usually Mrs that goes with that.

I did this because despite degrees - DH and phd - we married in our mid to late 20s - changing my name that young didn't impact my career or any publications. Many of our uni peers married later when they were already established in their careers and name changes could have professional implications - in which case keeping orginal name and going my MS become easier choice.

So I am wondering how much of that explains this apparent name change and education level pattern raised here..

I had several reasons for doing name change - all of which posters who made different choice always dimiss - though when I did so I no idea what a pain in arse it would be to do and wouldn't bother ever again.

Beyond that Ms or Mrs makes no difference to me - I probaly would correct Miss and if it came up I'd change surnames that Miss would raise questions later. When I was younger thought MS or no titles were better as martial status should be irrevelant to socitey today but societey never gone that way - though media increasingly seems to hang on to orginal names and drop titles for a lot of women known before marraiges regardless of what they then want to be called.

You won’t get an answer.

Its very cultural. Adult German women are all Frau X, regardless of their marital status. I think France is similar. I have been Ms or Frau Dancing since I was 16.
I didn't change my name on marriage, his name isn't as nice as mine. Also as children of multiple divorces our parent have a variety of names with changed regularly, so I never felt the need for us to match. Has never made a difference to my feminist credibility.

I think Ms and Miss should be abolished. Then those that want to keep Mrs can, but it then as a relationship status becomes meaningless

I was pleased to discover this morning that our new HR system (which I couldn't log into at all yesterday,) has allowed me to update my personal details to no selected title.

It might mean my next payslip is addressed to No selected title Emma Bearhug, mind you...