Do titles matter?

[Cheeseandolivesplease]

I had this debate on a general board and the over-riding consensus was that "titles are irrelevant" (insofar as it makes no difference if you choose to be a Mrs HisName).
I vehemently disagree.
Someone suggested I'd get a different perspective on the Feminism board so here I am.
Is the fact that I am a married Ms MyName a "complete irrelevance" to fighting against the patriarchy do you think?
Do female honorifics matter?

They were also old school and traditional. They couldn’t get their head round why a woman wouldn’t want to become Mrs Husband Name. At the same time I worked in an industry where keeping your name/identity mattered. I also had the mindset of why should I change. I’m early 60’s and there was a pushback on this for some women years ago but I have noticed some younger women are taking a more traditional route.

@NullaEffugium
We definitely didn't have a big, or a fancy wedding. But we did ensure we took out the patriarchal traditions.
Ms is a neutral title nowadays, I'm a bit confused about why you keep referring to its meaning historically?

My daughter’s fiancé is taking her name, so that will take us to over 200yrs maternal surname. Can I say it’s made a difference? No

Why? Because you can be as matrilineal as much as and for as long as you want but that doesn’t impact patriarchy one bit because the two are not mutually inclusive and do not depend on each other.

Yes, it matters. Men are Mr, regardless of marital status. German adult women are Frau, French Madame, Spanish Señora, regardless of marital status.

Whether we choose Miss, Ms or Mrs (all of whuch are contractions of mistress,) someone will judge us and make assumptions about us because of it. Men do not have to deal with that.

I'd actually prefer no title, (it's rarely anyone's business whether I'm male or female,) but it's a rare online form that allows that option.

Because it’s not neutral nowadays.
Loads of married women are Ms
Loads of unmarried women are Mrs

There is no term that announces your marital status with any semblance of accuracy TODAY

To answer the why bring in the history ask @GarlicEverywhere because that is what was put out there as reasons why it matters. Reasons that are pure fantasy imho,

Also, if it didn't matter, there wouldn't have been approximately 4577325 previous MN threads on the subject.

I think we need a need a new title, for all adult women, without any historical negative connatations. Because there will never to consensus which one of the current options is better.

The question was Is the fact that I am a married Ms MyName a "complete irrelevance" to fighting against the patriarchy do you think?

My answer is yes it is a complete irrelevance to fighting the patriarchy. I understand many women have been led to believe it does matter, likely to avoid the hard work of addressing the real issues with patriarchy.

edited for clarity

@NullaEffugium, nice that the women in your family keep the surname. In some cultures, of course, that is normal - or the children have different surnames, following other traditions.

I'm sure you know it's daft to keep telling people "Don't worry about this! It's more important to worry about that!" We are capable of being concerned about several things at once - or, in this case, several aspects of the same overall issue.

Likewise I am sure you know it’s daft to think that ones energy for concern and action is infinite and that focussing on such irrelevancies is not a waste of energy best directed towards relevant efforts that actually make a difference to your stated values.

But you do you.

@NullaEffugium But we are disagreeing with you in that it isn't an irrelevance to us.
What title did you take out of interest?
The small steps add up to big steps after all.

HTH and 'you do you' on the same thread! Is your matrilineal surname Dismissively-Patronising?

@BirdLandedonmyHead I don't regard being divorced as a negative connotation if that is what you are referring to?

I’m not trying to convince you to change your mind on what matters to you. I am challenging your sense of the importance of how much this matters. It is imho irrelevant to feminism and fighting the patriarchy. It’s really more about picking a title name combo that makes it easiest for you to move in your social circles in your small pond.

What title did you take out of interest?
I married young so was called Miss until I Iooked 30, then Ms or Mrs- just didn’t care and it didn’t matter. Married but don’t wear a ring (hate jewellery personal preference not a feminist act ffs). Professionally it was Lieutenant, Captain etc in post armed forces civilian profession it was Dr. I’m retired in France now and it’s always just Madame.

More women being Dr or General or President - those titles are steps because they were reserved for men, but any title that refers to an adult women is no step at all no matter what you pick. That’s my honest opinion based on life experience, and historical research.

It is a Scottish surname.
This feels more like an English etiquette thread on naming conventions in polite society than a feminist issue.

It's a feminist issue (in various English-speaking countries,) because it's something men do not have to think about. A woman may decide she doesn't care which honorific is used for her, but she has to think about it enough to know she doesn't care. And plenty of other women do care.

If we had gone through way of other languages and any adult woman was automatically Mrs, that would have been fine. But we didn't, and the chance of reaching consensus on using only Mrs or Ms or Miss for all adult women is unlikely, as you'll get those who are so proud of being Mrs, those who think it's not usually anyone else's business that they're married, those who think Ms would imply they are divorced, those who think Miss means an old maid, etc. Others will say those connotations are rubbish, but they're still out there.

There isn't a single neutral option like Mr - Ms should be, but it's not. And that is why it's a feminist issue for English speakers.

I agree it’s a feminist issue.

I also would prefer not to use any title; my name is my name, but titles are just a social convention I can manage without. My petty act of rebellion on unimportant online forms is to select Dr, Rev, Lt Colonel or something similar.

I can't choose Dr - all my friends with PhDs, they really slogged their guts out to earn that title.

@EBearhug I totally agree with everything you have said. Either do away with titles all together or give women one that is as truly universal as Mr and doesn't even remotely suggest marital status (even if by incorrect assumption).

Oh indeed, EBearhug. That’s why I only use these unearned titles in situations where no person is likely to read the form and certainly not to be swayed by it, so online shopping etc.

I wish we could be like Iceland where there are no titles at all. Just FIRST NAME, LAST NAME on everything.
I accept that some want to have the choice, but I do object to online forms where it's absolutely mandatory to choose between Miss, Mrs, Ms, Mr etc. and the form won't allow me to choose none of those. I do not want to be labelled by titles at all.

Women already do have a generic title. It’s “Ms”.

Why are you looking for a “different perspective”? It comes across as someone continuing to search for an echo chamber until they find one.

You might want to check out the current recent trends of individuals getting to dictate to others what their titles should be… not getting away from it anytime soon

It's a feminist issue (in various English-speaking countries,) because it's something men do not have to think about.

I don’t agree with the paradigm that an issue men don’t have to think about is therefore a feminist issue.

Especially since much of the discussion on here was saying the opposite, that it is a feminist issue because of what men think about it when it comes to choosing Ms/Mrs or married surname.