Lilly Allen & Miquita on abortions

[Cloud987]

Sorry for the DM link - I know it's a rag.

I'm just completely disturbed having read this article and listened to their podcast episode of them talking about having 5 abortions each. This surely is not what the 1967 abortion act was designed for. It's not some preppy girl-power feminist statement to have so many abortions you can't even remember them. And to laugh and sing about it rather than take a somber view or think about how you would make better choices or advise women and girls listening to make other choices for themselves. Or to demand that contraceptive services post-abortion are better to prevent girls from having another one. Am I wrong for thinking this is messed up and completely tasteless? And antithetical to the well-being of women and girls? Am I being excessively prude and judgemental?

Sorry didn't know where else to put this & haven't made a thread before so if I have broken rules or if this just is inappropriate let me know. This has just really got under my skin.

Article link here

Their podcast is called "Miss Me" and is available on BBC sounds - it's on their episode from this week called "Listen Bitch" at the very start. I am not a regular listener to it.

Edit: sorry I meant to post this on feminism chat not S&G discussions

I don’t like her at all but I couldn’t give a fig how many abortions she’s had. It’s her business and right to do so.
Your body your choice.

I guess, though, that anybody who has SUCH a chaotic life that they have abortion after abortion and treat it as if it's nothing, are probably only going to be chaotic parents. So if it's a choice between an abortion or an unwanted child with who isn't looked after properly maybe the abortion (no matter how many) is for the best?

By all accounts, Lily seems like a really good parent.

She certainly puts her girls first, prioritising areas that the vast majority of us are too lax on (eg phones etc - her girls aren't allowed one even though they are teens) and she has fostered good relationships with their Dads.

She also suffered a still birth and openly discusses the pain of it.

These are 40 year old women talking about events that happened when they were very young.

Your judgement and weird assumptions say more about you than them.

It is disgusting.

Lily Allen is a talentless person who just happens to gave a famous actor father. Which then caused her to be famous. With her fake mockney accent despite having been to a nice private school where no one has a cockney accent

Disgusting to use abortion as a means of contraception and laugh about it

Many, many things are used against women having abortions. Certain political and religious beliefs, for example.
Two women discussing their experiences is hardly as bad as global leaders of nations and religions castigating women and judging their choices.

How many abortions makes you ‘chaotic’ and not parent material? Three? Four? Five?

Disgusting to use abortion as a means of contraception and laugh about it

At literally no point in the podcast do they do this.

No. The 1967 Abortion Act was to allow all women to have free, safe abortions. There was nothing about a moral judgement concerning frequency or personal behaviour of said women.

Being an Adult woman means being responsible.

It has nothing to do with men using condoms or not. As women we are the ones who get pregnant and have the consequences of unprotected sex.

Being responsible as an adult woman is not having one abortion after the other as a means of contraception.

We are lucky that we now have access to free contraception and to control our own bodies.

Being irresponsible is not being a feminist. It's just being irresponsible.

Surely you can understand that the difference is with a miscarriage the pregnancy was welcomed and wanted and with an abortion it wasn’t?

Women should be free to access abortion as frequently as necessary. They should not be made to feel bad about that, nor should they be judged for doing so. Because where do you draw the line? One abortion is ok, but not two? Abortion is ok if you’re really really sad about it afterwards and vow to learn your lesson? Abortion is alright but you must do penance for your morally reprehensible act?

A woman who does not want to be pregnant should not be forced to be. So 5 abortions, 10, 40, whatever is necessary. Contraception fails, non consensual sex happens, circumstances change, lapses occur.

She might not have said it but that's what she was doing

Yes, but that would mean only "responsible" women could get abortions. And who decides the level of responsibility, @Plantladylover ?
Would you not allow a woman to have an abortion who got pregnant because she was drunk? That's irresponsible.

I think a lot of people want there to be a strict rule that good person = feminist = pro-choice = supporting no legal restrictions at all = celebrating all choices under all circumstances.

It's a strange and extremist position not held by most normal people!

It's not 'extremist' to not support the shaming of women who've had abortions.

Don't be ridiculous.

The choice isn't usually between having an abortion and having a baby; it's between legal safe abortions, or back street jobs. That's what will happen if some moral arbiter decides that there should be a limit to how many women have.

Whilst I am totally pro choice…and have had a very early termination myself, I know how traumatic it was.
It was 15 years ago, but it wasn’t easy…not because I regret it, I don’t, it was the right thing for me at the time, and having the baby would have been disastrous for me and my kids.

However, it wasn’t a choice that just happened, it was thought out, discussed, and pros and cons listed so I knew what I was doing was absolutely right.

To treat it just like contraception is in my opinion, wrong.

yes, it’s just my opinion, some might not agree, but it feels so distasteful.

@JasonTindallsTan , you're right about the shaming of women. It's still very apparent.

That's your choice and your opinion, @Katkins17 . Would you impose that on other women, though?

Of course not. Many of us have been drunk and stupid and made bloody silly decisions.

But if I'd had unprotected sex and had an abortion which would have been fine I'd dam sure not do it another 4 times.

That's you. To be honest, that's me as well. However, it's not all women. I'm just wondering how you would decide on a limit and define levels of "irresponsibility".

Maybe it's downstream of legality and cultural. Maybe we should encourage women to only have sex with committed partners, or men they know they want to have kids with, rather than engage in casual sex or sex while drunk etc.

I am 28 so young-ish and sex was always spoken about very liberally at uni, even more so in liberal/sex positive feminist groups I was part of. Maybe we should be more conservative in parenting girls and in feminist circles? I'd argue there is a feminist argument against encouraging women to have casual sex on the grounds of unwanted pregnancy (which is an unfair burden on women) alone. Maybe this is already happening and I am out of touch

I didn't realise abortion is a form of contraception?
Yes, let's promote free infinite abortions for all and forget all about a woman's personal agency... Because that's not what feminism is about at all...

It's totally crass, and I know she spent a lot of time high (or so she says) so I can believe it - but I don't care. I think I would care if she had had them at late stages - but I simply don't believe that is the case. Regardless what I personally think of either of them.

I can understand a wanted pregnancy being terminated being traumatic, but if it's not, and it's cells that cannot function outside the woman's body, then fair play if it means nothing to you.

I feel the same about miscarriages. I have had them and wasn’t teary or upset. But that doesn’t mean I don’t understand how serious they are. I'm not sure I agree with miscarriages or abortions necessarily being 'serious'.

@JustSawJohnny - just removing my comment about her stillbirth as I was mistaken.

What happens if you use your one acceptable abortion after a drunken mistake but then you fall pregnant again after a contraceptive fail? Or following a sexual assault? You just have to suck it up?

Of course there isn't a limit. I just think it's a shame in this day and age women don't take responsibility for their reproductive health.

Of course accidents happen. But to just be so casual oh I don't know how many abortions I've had is pretty rough and a poor example fo women and our daughters.

I enjoy their podcast. I am a feminist. However I did cringe with this particular episode… Lily lives in the US where abortion rights have recently been overturned (Roe v Wade)… I felt her admission was more of a “f*ck you” to the law makers in the US. I’m very much pro choice, have had an abortion myself but I felt their attitude could actually have the reverse effect and embolden right wing misogynists should they ever come into power here in the UK.