Lilly Allen & Miquita on abortions

[Cloud987]

Sorry for the DM link - I know it's a rag.

I'm just completely disturbed having read this article and listened to their podcast episode of them talking about having 5 abortions each. This surely is not what the 1967 abortion act was designed for. It's not some preppy girl-power feminist statement to have so many abortions you can't even remember them. And to laugh and sing about it rather than take a somber view or think about how you would make better choices or advise women and girls listening to make other choices for themselves. Or to demand that contraceptive services post-abortion are better to prevent girls from having another one. Am I wrong for thinking this is messed up and completely tasteless? And antithetical to the well-being of women and girls? Am I being excessively prude and judgemental?

Sorry didn't know where else to put this & haven't made a thread before so if I have broken rules or if this just is inappropriate let me know. This has just really got under my skin.

Article link here

Their podcast is called "Miss Me" and is available on BBC sounds - it's on their episode from this week called "Listen Bitch" at the very start. I am not a regular listener to it.

Edit: sorry I meant to post this on feminism chat not S&G discussions

Bullshit.

One of my friends was adopted. She is deeply damaged from it. She has been in therapy for her whole life.

Some adoptions may go well. Many don't.

At 3rd trimester (and late 2nd) it can live outside the human body fine.

A stillbirth is by definition beyond viability age. It's still a fetus. You say you feel no emotion at the death of a fetus. Half of the time someone spends as a fetus is post viability.

So would you be fine giving birth, and giving up yout baby for adoption and be totally fine with your baby living somewhere else?

Having to go through birth and give a baby up for adoption, can cause birth mothers terrible trauma.

in many incidents, abortion can be more humane for everyone.

I think while ultimately their body, their choice, it’s seems a bit “I can just have an abortion” Didn’t lily say when she was younger she thought it was romantic if a guy offered to pay for her to have one ? Now that’s some weird statement.
But also, it isn’t just on the woman here, men and women should be protecting themselves to prevent this and stis

Fuck me, people who have abortions aren’t quite on the same scale as Rose West.
What a load of absolute bollocks.

@RT112 Look whether you like it or not, women in this country have autonomy over their own bodies. Deal with it

Define emotion. No one is going to feel extreme emotion for a fetus that they have never met.

When my colleague went through a miscarriage, I felt emotion for her, as i saw how sad she felt. I made her cups of tea and i listened to her.

I didn't feel any emotion for the fetus as a person, because i had never met them

Thank you for articulating that way better than I was trying to do.

I’m very pro legal abortion, and it’s their right to have one and their bodies. However, saying that abortion should not be used as contraception is not “shaming”. It’s usually a serious medical procedure, can have side effects, and it also costs the NHS a lot of money compared to contraception.

There’s some difference too, here, between the early abortion pill and a surgical abortion - the second is obviously much more traumatic and invasive than the first - but AFAIK the abortion pill has not been available for too long, so were the incidents they were talking about surgical abortions: impossible to know.

I do have to say that I think five abortions is irresponsible, and that is by no means incompatible with being pro-choice/pro-abortion. Believing that women should always have legal access to free safe abortion as medical care, does not mean that therefore I have to believe that it’s responsible to have multiple abortions. (I believe that smokers should have legal access to free safe medical care, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think smoking is irresponsible.) However pro-choice one is, I think there’s a duty to recognise that it’s not simply a neutral procedure. Avoiding the need for abortion where possible by using safe contraception, avoiding later surgical abortions by making the abortion pill available to take earlier, all are compatible with being pro choice (and also not incompatible to believing that later abortion if medically necessary should also be legally available and not criminalised. These are all grey areas, not black and white).

A young woman requiring multiple abortions when she is not coerced, there is nothing medically wrong with the foetus, and she has full capacity, is being irresponsible. She and her partners should be making sure as far as possible that she isn’t getting pregnant if she does not want to be. That doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have the right to an abortion. It isn’t a good state of affairs, though, or what the abortion act was designed for. It’s fine to acknowledge this. It’s also possible to believe that something is irresponsible and that still not being “shaming”. Just because women should be able to have a legal right does not mean it’s therefore a good.

When I hear about people who have been killed or suffered terrible injuries on the news I feel emotion - I've never met them.

Do you really feel no emotion for anyone other than people you've physically met and formed friendships or relationships with?

I think it is sad of course, but I obviously wouldn't feel extreme emotion.

I read that a young footballer was killed today in a car crash. I felt sad for his family. But i didn't cry.

Of course we feel more emotion for the people that we know.

I don't know if you have a husband or child. But if you do, wouldn't you feel more emotion if one of them died, than you would for a stranger dying on the news?

So do you feel emotion and sadness for the fetuses that Lily Allen aborted?

Everyone feels more emotional for people they're close to, don't be daft. That's not what we're talking about here. If I hear of a child that's died of cancer, I feel sorry for the family, but I also feel sorry for the child and the loss of their future. Same when people have babies die. It's sad for the family and the baby.

I personally think that I feel no more emotion over full term stillbirth, for example, than a wank, except for sadness for its family, is very unusual and quite disturbing.

It would be a bit odd if you did @SirChenjins

I'm not talking about extreme emotion - you added the word extreme.

Of course I would feel different emotions if my husband or children passed away compared to the emotion I feel reading about some atrocity on the news. Emotions are many and varied - which is why it's perfectly possible to be pro-choice and feel a range of different about the way L&M were talking about their 10-plus abortions.

See I don't feel sad when babies die from abortion

If i feel any emotion actually, i feel happiness, as that child is saved from a lifetime of suffering.

I know one man that was born into an extremely abusive family. He wasn't wanted. He has had a terrible life, his whole life was full of constant suffering

He told me that he asked his mother why she didn't get an abortion, as it would have saved him from a lifetime of suffering.

I’m a feminist who believes in a woman has the right of control over their bodies. I support women who want to make that choice . That doesn’t mean I support stupidity. Feminism is not about supporting stupidity. Neither of these women are poor and uneducated. Just lazy with regard to sexual health and reproduction. I also have adhd so the pill would never of worked for me as I would simply of forgotten to take it .. I made that mistake once and had to have an abortion. I didn’t make it twice because I sourced contraception that didn’t rely on me having to remember anything.

A zygote is not a baby. It has the potential to become one. No one is killing babies; women are making decisions about their own bodies.

Pregnancy is one of the most dangerous things a woman’s body goes through, let’s not pretend it’s all rainbows and butterflies. I have permanent and substantial damage as a result of pregnancy.

More and more evidence of trauma in adults who were adopted as babies has been coming to light in the past 20 years. Being removed from their birth mothers is damaging. It’s not like passing on a dress that doesn’t fit.

If a woman doesn’t want to go through a pregnancy and doesn’t feel ready to be a mother, yes, ideally contraception would be the first choice but termination is also fine.

My emotion and thoughts aren’t generally for the person who dies. They’re dead, they know nothing of it. My thoughts are either for the friends and family (in the sad case of Diogo Jota today) or myself, because I will miss them and what they brought to my life. In the case of a stillbirth or a miscarriage my thoughts are for the usually devastated family and friends, but in the case of a ToP, the mother doesn’t want to be pregnant anymore so who am I supposed to feel sad or emotional for?

If the woman or girl doesn't want to be pregnant then absolutely - I hope the abortion is straightforward and doesn't require further intervention.

Not every ToP is the result of a woman not wanting to be pregnant anymore and I think it's important to make that distinction.

No but evidently in the case of the two women in question they were for presumably ‘social’ reasons. A TFMR would be covered under ‘i’d feel sad for the family as the baby was wanted’ but I still wouldn’t feel sad for the fetus.

My feelings differ obviously - it's a sad situation all round imo.

Yes, L&M's abortions were presumably for 'social' reasons - I don't think m/any on here would disagree with that right.

Yeah it doesn’t matter the reason. A woman can have an abortion for any reason they like

One of my friends was adopted. She is deeply damaged from it. She has been in therapy for her whole life

Geez - one persons experience. You could end up in therapy for a whole lot of reasons, many do - in fact, Lily Allen talks about her own time in therapy.
Many adoptions go splendidly, many people would love to adopt and support a child.

So many on here chucking the word 'misogyny* about, usually followed by a rant about men 'walking away free'.
Some women maybe need to consider these are the men they chose to have unprotected sex with. Maybe checking out how responsible the man was and what commitment he brings to the relationship needed to come first. Perhaps it's about putting a higher value on ourselves and our bodies.
It's what we should be teaching our children, male and female.