Lilly Allen & Miquita on abortions

[Cloud987]

Sorry for the DM link - I know it's a rag.

I'm just completely disturbed having read this article and listened to their podcast episode of them talking about having 5 abortions each. This surely is not what the 1967 abortion act was designed for. It's not some preppy girl-power feminist statement to have so many abortions you can't even remember them. And to laugh and sing about it rather than take a somber view or think about how you would make better choices or advise women and girls listening to make other choices for themselves. Or to demand that contraceptive services post-abortion are better to prevent girls from having another one. Am I wrong for thinking this is messed up and completely tasteless? And antithetical to the well-being of women and girls? Am I being excessively prude and judgemental?

Sorry didn't know where else to put this & haven't made a thread before so if I have broken rules or if this just is inappropriate let me know. This has just really got under my skin.

Article link here

Their podcast is called "Miss Me" and is available on BBC sounds - it's on their episode from this week called "Listen Bitch" at the very start. I am not a regular listener to it.

Edit: sorry I meant to post this on feminism chat not S&G discussions

Yeah this, there is a bit of 'oh look how radical and edgy I am!' coming from that poster. 🙄 (And a couple of others...) I'm not engaging any further with them.

No they couldn't 😂Those millions of sperm could not be living people, not without the egg(s.) You are reaching so far here that you can touch the moon!

Not engaging with you anymore either. Your comments are farcical!

I didn't say that they could be living people without an egg did I. Duh that is biology 101.

i said that those sperm all have the potential to be living people. Which they do. The man kills all that potential for life when he ejaculates into a condom. Which is true.

I heard this argument when my mum was talking to a man about it.

The man was saying to my mum that women shouldnt get abortions, that they are sluts that should keep their legs closed, and abortion is murder etc.

My mum turned around to him and said "you kill thousands of sperm every time you come into a condom. That is murder too if you want to think of it that way".

And she was right!

As soon as one of those "irresponsible ejaculators" has an interview and talks about how many women he has made pregnant and then refused to take responsibility for them, I am sure he will be subject to all types of comments.

I bet dollars to donuts that if a man was interviewed and talked about how he had gotten too many girls pregnant to remember the count, but told them all to go get an abortion, he would be torn to shreds.

Exactly it is always the woman that is blamed and shamed.

Look at all the threads on here where women say that their partner wants them to have an abortion.

The woman goes to get the abortion. She is blamed and shamed. The man is totally free from judgement. We live in a disgusting society.

I am 100% pro choice. Every time.

I can’t put my finger on why am I very, very uncomfortable with this

With that logic we should be crying for all the babies we are not having every month with a period..... oh hang on I hear the Catholic church calling

They are 40 year old women talking about their actions when very young.

LA was wealthy but neglected, had a chaotic life and a lot of exposure to drug taking. It’s not hard to see how unwanted pregnancies could happen multiple times in that chaotic and dysfunctional environment.

Far better to abort each pregnancy than continue with it in those circumstances.

Are abortions only ok if they come with a hair shirt?

A sperm or an egg is not a zygote, embryo or foetus.

No one is saying that they are.

We are saying that a sperm and an egg both have the potential for life.

I feel the same about sperm being killed as I do about a fetus being killed. I don't feel any emotion about either.

Our bodies have the potential to grow life.

It doesn't mean that anyone should be forced to grow life.

Eggs, sperm and fetuses die along the way.

They only have the potential for life when they join together - an unfertilised egg and a sperm individually cannot create life.

I agree absolutely that women should have the choice to terminate their pregnancy, but as I've already said, the tone and content of the discussion did not sit right with me.

You could also say that a fetus only has potential for life, if the mother agrees to carry
it to term.

In our society where:

There is no hormonal contraception for men to take.
Where the hormonal contraception for women is not 100 per cent reliable. The pill does not work if the woman is sick for example.
Where men are the physically stronger people and they often demand sex snd push women inot having sex.

Of course abortion should be available. It is humane

The joining of a sperm and an egg create a new unique life form, with unique DNA. If that DNA is extracted a week after conception, or when the individual is 90 years old, they'll be identifiable as the same person.

Even a zygote has human DNA. It's a human being at that stage, but one that for sensible reasons, we don't give a 'personhood' to. To be possible to decode that zygotes DNA and work out their sex, eye colour, hair colour. None of that is applicable to an egg or sperm.

We say it's a potential person, at the early stage, because many stop developing and otherwise it's too traumatic to think about. It protects us mentally. It also helps make abortions more palatable. It's much easier to go 'this is a bunch of cells with the potential to become a human' than ' this is a 6-week-old embryo who if allowed to continue to grow will be a woman with brown hair, blue eyes, ridiculously small feet and an increased risk of breast cancer and Alzheimer's'

I'm not saying we should ban abortions, but I don't think we should ignore the unique humanity of early human life either, just because it's easier for us.

Ok. So is a stillbirth the same to you as someone wanking?

Really?
Do you not feel sad for the baby, rather than just it's parents sadness?

I grew up in Ireland. Abortion wasn't legal there at all until a couple of years ago.

Abortion only became legal in Ireland about six years ago.

I saw all the pain and suffering that happened in ireland, from forced pregnancies.

I know how important it is to have abortion accessible to everyone.

It leads to a much more humane society.

A stillbirth is completelt different to an abortion.

In a stillbirth, the woman wanted to have the child. She lost the child that she wanted , and yes of course I would feel sad for her.

In an abortion, the child is not wanted, and I would never force a woman to give birth to a child that she does not want.

I also would not want that child to be born into a family where it is not wanted. That would be cruel for the child.

Both are fetuses though, and you said you feel no emotion over a fetus being killed. That the death of a fetus is the same as an ejaculation to you morally.

I can understand you might feel sad for the parents, but in terms of the actual fetus, they are identical, so presumably you don't feel any emotion towards the fact that they died and it's sad for that baby?

I am not sure what your point is in all this.

Well I will clarify what I meant, in case there was any ambguity.

I feel no emotion over a fetus that is killed by abortion.

The fetus wasn't wanted and therefore abortion is the right thing to for both the mother and fetus.

Stillbirth is different, as the child was wanted, and the mother has suffered a loss of something that she wanted. In that case, i would feel emotion for the mother.

Ok. So I'm getting that you'd not feel sad for the stillborn baby, just for it's parents?

At least that's consistent at least with your view that to you its worth the same as a wank. It just makes me despair how little human life is valued sometimes.

Let's get back on question here to LA.

“Are abortions only ok if they come with a hair shirt?”

This sums it up so well.

Sooooo many posters on here have INTERNALISED MISOGYNY - it’s really sad

@Soggybirthdaycamping

a foetus isn’t a baby though, it couldn’t live outside of the womb.

I think what you wrote there is disgusting.How dare you say that.

I have huge value for life. I value the life of the woman.

I will never ever force a woman to carry a baby to term that she doesn't want. I think it is horrifically cruel to do that to someone and then make her bring up the child for 18 years, while the father fucks off.

Bullshit, a baby can be raised by other people and have wonderful life, but once it is killed by own mother, there is no life terrible or wonderful.

As I said I grew up in Ireland where abortion was illegal until about six years ago.

I heard all the horror stories from my mother, and how utterly trapped women were in Ireland.

My mother was born in 1947. She told me that in those days husbands felt that they had total rights over their wives and a lot of the men would rape their wives. My mpther told me that her father would rape her mother over and over again.
As abortion wasn't available my grandmother had to give birth to 9 children.
My grandmother ended up dying at a very young age, 41, as she was very sick from having given birth so many times.
My mum told me me that her mother talked about leaving to escape my grandfather once, but she came back for the children.

Also at this time, the infamous magdelene laundries existed in ireland. If a woman was raped , she was locked up in a magdelene laundry, and had to give her baby up for adoption. Wouldn't abortion have been more humane than that?

If she even just wasnt married and got pregnant, (many women said their boyfriends pushed them into having sex) she could still be locked up in a magdelene laundry for years, and told she was a sinner.

Abortion at that time would have saved countless lives from suffering as much as they did.