How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

So women and little girls should be wearing burkhas because men can't control themselves? Do you wear a burkha OP? I notice the judgmental cow in the video is wearing a very low-cut top. How will she cope if a bloke gropes her tits?

I'd argue if men insist on behaving like wild animals, then we should treat them like wild animals and lock them up in zoos.

Men work in fashion. I would think a whole group of people pick the up coming styles I.e fashion designers, stylists, fashion journalists, buyers. How old are these young women you are referring too? Because a woman is someone 18 and over and can make their own choice if they want to wear very revealing clothes. What constitute as ultra sexualised clothing at a young age? A skirt? Shorts? I think it is very telling from the language you use that you show contempt for females.

Remember that British couple that got arrested for 'espionage' after deciding to go on a roadtrip through Iran? The comments on the thread here were invariably non sympathetic and full of people saying "no sympathy from me....they were idiots to ever think this was a good idea". But really this is victim blaming too if we use the same perspective.

But only if you think dressing revealingly increases your chances of rape by the same amount that going on a roadtrip through Iran increases your chance of being arrested. What I (and I think others) are arguing is that how you dress has no bearing on how likely you are to be raped. So the comparison doesn't work.

It's like when people say "Oh but you wouldn't flash around a diamond Rolex in a dodgy area".That's true but the point is you don't flash your Rolex so that thieves don't know you have a Rolex at all. Whether or not I wear a short skirt men are aware I am a woman and have a body.

What are they wearing? Tittie clamps? Bras? Knickers? Bondage? Would be interested to know what x-rated films and photo shoots you have been watching? I don’t see young girls walking around like that.

@BeJollyEagle

as with most things, it’s complicated but there are men who take advantage of women particularly drunk women, and being provocatively dressed can be a factor. These aren’t ordinary men who can control their urges, they are men who cannot, and act because a situation presents to them. I’ve been followed late at night by a creepy guy, I turned around and asked him if he was following me, made it clear i wasn’t drunk and claimed I was filming him, I wasn’t but he scurried off and I phoned the police who did nothing

Because the only choices are a mini skirt or a burkha, right?

Why is it always little girls that get their fashion picked on.
They didn't create this society They dont tend to understand properly that older adults sexualise them so much, or how vulnerable it can make them.
That older men are more likely to assume that they're trying to be sexy rather than fashionable, and that older women assume that they are precociously sexual and therefore inviting the attention.

Jesus Christ. Why dress a certain way if they don’t want attention? 👀

You do realise it isn’t just young men who rape, middle aged men and old men too. Do you also realise that women also produce testosterone yet aren’t going around raping boys and men? You’ve proven you’re rapist empathiser 🤢👀👀👀

I think we're assuming here though that the majority of rapes are women being dragged down dark alleys by complete strangers. Usually this isn't the case judging by the cases you hear about. It's often excessive alcohol, hotel rooms/his flat, and an argument over whether it was consensual or not.

So men can take advantage of drunk women, okay. This is because she’s vulnerable and easy to attack. So should every women choose not to drink? I don’t understand the revealing dress factor? Plenty of drunk women who have been raped are not walking around half naked. Also plenty of women who are “provocatively” dressed are not drunk. Also when you use the term provocatively dressed it means the intention of arousing sexual desire, so surely that is subjective to what people find arousing?

Can I ask you what you were wearing when you were harassed by a non-ordinary man?

And do you think that in these cases the way a woman was dressed is a factor?

Also who do you think picks the trends and styles, who wants young women to wear very revealing and ultra sexualised clothing at a young age? Do you think it is other women?

The fashion industry is run by women. Most young women wear revealing clothes because they like the male attention. Let's be honest here.

Nobody is tottering around in stilettos and freezing half to death for reasons related to comfort. It's not like they'd wear the same outfit to sit on the sofa watching Emmerdale.

That’s because we live in a patriarchal society where are still to a large extent financially disadvantaged and socialisation

but also yes a small part because women are seeking mates - which is not relevant at all to whether or not men rape them.

When a woman says "I wear it for myself not for others", this usually means "I like feeling attractive/validated but I'm not actively looking for a bloke". It doesn't mean she wears it because it's comfy. People like feeling attractive to the opposite sex. It's biologically programmed into us.

Have you done a survey? You're making a lot of assumptions and again making women responsible for the behaviour of others.

The majority of fashion designers seem to be men.

No, another choice is not to rape.

Not true.

In the US 85% of fashion designers are female. I highly doubt it's different in the UK.

https://datausa.io/profile/soc/fashion-designers#:~:text=Gender%20and%20Age&text=Employed%20people-,The%20workforce%20of%20Fashion%20designers%20in%202022%20was%2025%2C333%20people,woman%2C%20and%2014.1%25%20men.

My understanding is that the girls were targeted for rape because they were vulnerable and therefore easier to groom, not because of clothing or skin colour

I said seem, because all the big ones I can name are. The designers are only one facet of the chain that sees clothes in shops and supermarkets.

So you're saying there isn't any option aside from a burkha or something revealing? That was the topic being discussed.

You said are those the only choices? I offered a third which doesn't include what someone is wearing.

Oh, I see. It wasn't just a figure of speech when you said they 'seem to be men'. You were making a nuanced point about how the perception of the designers being men isn't necessarily true. They seem to be male but they're actually mostly female.

Or maybe you were just using semantics to try and shift the goalposts. 😂 Either way, the majority of designers are women so it's likely them creating the revealing clothing discussed.

No, it really wasn't that complex, I meant what I said.

I'm not sure why you're so fixated on women's clothes.

Jesus, you're more slippery than a greased ferret. 😂

Your response to people talking about revealing clothes was "so everybody should just wear a burkha then?" I was suggesting that there may be other options aside from the two extremes.

I'm a bit confused by your 'third choice'. A clothing choice that doesn't include what someone is wearing? 🤔 Do you mean walking around nude lol.

Interviews with men convicted of rape of strangers, have shown that some of these men avoid women who make strong eye contact, because it increases the chance the woman will be able to recognise and identify the attacker if criminal proceedings take place.

So let us look at that: strong or weak eye contact, 1 or 100 years old, short skirt or niqab, dead or alive, human or not human, makes no difference to the incidence of rape......it is almost like it has nothing to do with the victim at all AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE MAN RAPING.

Compare social systems: Capitalist uber-profit seeking society that pushes hyper sexualisation of the female body whilst constantly working to divest us of our agency. Versus a society that dictates that women be completely clad and be escorted everywhere by a male because again, they are not allowed agency. Women in the latter are not 'protected from' rape to a greater extent than in the former.

If men cannot help themselves due to testosterone, let us talk about how to sort men out then.

Don't talk about women making "informed choices", a hemline is not a shield.

How sad so many on this thread treat sexual violence as inevitable as the rain, and so if you get soaked, it is your responsibility because where was your umbrella, why did you go out in the rain in the first place. Isn't that bizarre to accept violence on such a level? Where is the discussion about men and their responsibilities? If they are so at the mercy of their 'nature' then let's talk about zoos for them then, as a PP said, or blinding them when they reach 18.

If you think putting men in zoos or blinding them sounds extreme, it really is! It is ridiculous, almost as ridiculous as discussing what women are wearing in the context of a discussion about rape. Almost.