How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

Many of them can't. (Not all)
If you are naive to that or just dont care that's on you.

Omg OP please expect more from men. They aren't some different species they are human beings.
They are capable of not getting an election just coz they saw a child in a crop top.
They do it as an active choice because they are allowed to get away with it.
Clothing doesn't protect women from this. Enforcing modestly just allows those types of men to entrench themselves further in the belief that women aren't really people worthy of any respect. You think women in hijab are treated better than women wearing shorts? You are on another planet. Any man who thinks it's acceptable to sexualise a woman without her permission or views having some skin on show as some kind of permission.. is not going to someow then turn around and truly respect any woman who dresses more modestly. It's just a different facet of misogyny. They just think women are all whore or mothers. Bodies defined by their relationship to male sexuality.
You can't make men like this respect you by covering up. It's no protection whatsoever. They just might try and marry you and impregnate you and get you to do their laundry. That's literally the only difference it makes to them. Who's suitable to be a wife and mother and who's just a whore.

Do you think either of those things is all you are or all you want to be??

Any woman with any type of self respect should be going nowhere near any man who thinks women's worth is somehow tied up in what clothing they wear.
That's the bottom line.
Thise men don't suddenly change because you dressed like a wife. It's simply the other side of their disgusting misogyny. You aren't suddenly 'safe' you are just dehumanised in a slightly different way.

I've known many pakistani men and non western men in my time who have told me how they view us and the reasons why.
I just want to clarify it is definitely not all of them but even the ones who don't groom or commit crimes hold these views.

I repeat nothing will change then. Let's carry on with the way things are.
Your living with your heads In the clouds if you think anything will change by giving the same perverted men what they want 😂.
I go back to my previous quote. " I want to know what the feminists in the 60s were thinking when they decided a good way to combat sexism and misogyny was to give the same sexist and misogynistic men more access to their bodies"

If they couldn't control themselves, they would be assaulting women in front of their friends, families and colleagues. They absolutely can control themselves. Rape is a choice, and it's unbelievably stupid to swallow this narrative about men being so inflamed by lust they can't help themselves.

You've apparently been chatting with lots of misogynists, but fail to see that they're the problem, not women wearing whatever the fuck they want which is actually normal, healthy and fine. Maybe they won't change, maybe men like this will always exploit vulnerable women and girls and have handy excuses for why they should get a pass on that, but here in the sane world, we don't pass the responsibility for that onto women to follow impossible shifting rules and goalposts to avoid their inevitable predation.

100% accurate.

I do but guess what it won't work if women keep doing the opposite of what is good for them. On one hand we tell men not to oversexualize women but women are quick to oversexualize themselves. We also tell them don't objectify women and again women(over here anyways) objectify themselves. It will forever be one two steps forward two steps back. Unless we be honest and acknowledge women are not perfect and do stupid things and unhealthy things just as men can do. And that we need to acknowledge certain parts of the sexual revolution were a mistake.
Sleeping around,dressing for the male gaze to name a few

But let’s just say for your sake it did improve it…By taking away the freedoms of only one group (women), you are saying that they should be governed by another

We live by laws everyday.
There's laws against murder,theft etc.
They will get over it.

There's so much in this video.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHuZ_8VYCWA

As I said carry on with the way things are

Are you really equating laws against violent acts and theft with laws about the way women should dress? You must know that's a false comparison. Murder and theft cause personal and social harm. What inherent harm is there in wearing a short skirt?
I'm not a fan of women objectifying themselves with "sexy" clothes, but I'm appalled that anyone would think it justifies oppression.

Nonsense. If they couldn't control themselves they'd be raping women in front of witnesses, even right in front of traffic cops at high noon in the middle of the high street. The fact that they take precautions against being caught 100% proves they can control it.

Nothing will change if women cover up either. It will only change if men choose to stop such behaviour. It's completely on them. Get it through your head that revealing clothing is not the reason why sexual assault happens and that women cannot change men. Nobody can change anybody else. Men would have to want to change and they obviously don't. You are living on Fantasy Island if you think anything women do stops rapists from wanting to rape.
I do get where this comes from though. A lot of women want to believe they have some control over men with what they do because it gives them a false sense of security that they won't be raped themselves. It's not true, so stop lying to yourself and face reality. It's an awful reality, but the solution to that isn't denying it.

Again, you're making this false equivalence. You seem to think that women are equally responsible for men's behaviour. They're not. No one is responsible for someone else's behaviour. We have criminal responsibility set at 10 in the UK meaning that a 10 year old knows right from wrong.

Women have always dressed for the male gaze, look at the tiny waists and bustles of the Victorian's for example. However, as has been pointed out to you many times, women are 85% more likely to be attacked by someone they know. Clothes therefore are not a factor. 50% of attacks are by a partner or former partner and the reason behind the attacks are a need for dominance and control; not clothes.

It's been proven that the more you prosecute, the better the laws, the less sexual assault happens. In countries where men act with impunity, rates are sky high. It's not me who has their head in the clouds, you're the one that thinks there's less assault in countries that control women's bodies. Despite all the evidence.

No. You know nothing. Are you from Barcelona?

You don't understand how research works, do you? A case study cannot legitimately be extrapolated globally.

It’s not really my problem how the male brain works. They don’t get a free pass because they’re just poor men who can’t help behaving poorly because their brains are bad. Like we’re supposed to feel sorry for them because pesky women keep inciting them to violence by existing, diddums etc.

You mention in another comment that women make their bodies more accessible.

That’s exactly the point. It’s my body, and is not owned by any man or any other person. Including people like you who believe we should just cover up incase the poor men can’t control themselves - which they can.

Within the law, we can dress those bodies however we please, and the answer isn’t to limit a woman’s personal choice to stop men raping them. The answer is that men should stop raping women.

The only person at fault for raping a woman, is the rapist.

The only person responsible for objectifying a woman going about her life wearing clothes, is the objectifier.

How do these men view women in general? And Western men are also misogynist OP.

In the 1960s feminists were not so much "combatting sexism and misogyny" in the way we understand it now. They were revelling in the new freedoms which allowed them to have sex lives as men always have. The availability of contraception and a freeing up of older social restrictons made it possible. Since then we (in the west) take such freedom and right to equality for granted, particularly after the mid 1970s equality legislation, so the emphasis now is more on addressing male behaviours that adversely affect women.

A tik tok discussion between random people is not "evidence". Do you have any idea what research means when you mention evidence? It means carefully designed studies using rigorous methodology to obtain and analyse the results, not randoms on the internet talking about their half-baked opinions.
I asked you what evidence because you said, "there is so much evidence" that scantily clad women have a negative effect on society.
So I ask you again, what evidence that there is "so much" of? Do you have any at all?
Thought not.

You completely ignored my point that this law would only target one group and pretty much my whole post…

So unserious.

And interesting that OP used ‘they’ to refer to women rather than ‘we’…

It could be she meant women who don't dress modestly, since she isn't one of "them" and would apparently like to see "them" oppressed for not being like her. Apparently she thinks one can just get over being oppressed because after all, we aren't allowed to kill or rob people either, which is totally the same thing as being flogged in the village square for immodest dress. 😄