How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

You think his intentions were always rape?

Interesting that quite a few posters support Gilead women’s “safety”. At the expense of women , of course.

Anyone would think you hadn’t read my previous posts on this thread which agreed entirely that most rapes are committed by a known perpetrator.

I should have been more specific…

In the small percentage of rapes and sexual assaults, where a person is assaulted by a stranger…when their previous assaults are analysed it generally seems that there are similarities between the victims.

• Stephen Port raped young men who he lured from Grindr
• Steve Wright raped and killed women in Ipswich
• R Kelly - young black girls aged 13 - 20

As my previous posts show, I am in no way agreeing with OP’s ridiculous assertion that clothing is responsible for rape. Rapists and only rapists are responsible for rape.

I’m just saying that I don’t know how anyone can be so certain that all rape is committed only due to the desire to dominate and never in the pursuit of sexual gratification.

First off, I'm not the OP.

What exactly do think is 'bullshit' about my post?

That Lara Logan was raped in Egypt? That 1200 women were sexually assaulted in Germany on NYE? Or are you taking issue with my comment that countries where they stone women to death for dating aren't really comparable to the UK?

No, I think that's highly unlikely and that he probably wouldn't have raped them if they'd had consensual sex.

As my previous posts show, I am in no way agreeing with OP’s ridiculous assertion that clothing is responsible for rape. Rapists and only rapists are responsible for rape.

I’m just saying that I don’t know how anyone can be so certain that all rape is committed only due to the desire to dominate and never in the pursuit of sexual gratification.

That's pretty much what I'm saying too. Even the experts seem to admit that there's so much variation between individual cases and perpetrators that we just don't have enough data to state anything with certainty.

It seems some posters are so fixated on being right that they're arguing with themselves or putting words into other posters mouths and arguing with that.

I am saying that this >>>>>>>

Those studies posted earlier on thread defo seem to be suggesting that how people perceive you from your appearance can alter their behaviour toward you.

^ is bullshit. Men rape and sexually assault because they want to and they can,
whether the person they assault is wearing modest fashion or not. Men like this also rape men, boys and yes goats, ponies, dogs and whatever else they choose. Are these poor animals supposedly wearing suggestive clothing? Looking at the sexual predator in a suggestive way? I'm afraid burkas do not prevent rape, nor does wearing jeans or long modest dresses.

Also when western women go to places like Egypt they are at increased risk.
Probably for whole range of factors. But how the women dress has nothing to do with it. As I shared a personal example of being sexually assaulted while walking a few steps behind my parents wearing completely modest clothing simply because I was female and because they wanted and could. My boring clothing did not encourage them. Such victim blaming.

I am glad some of OP's messed up posts are being deleted by MN now.

or decadea there has been a promotion of sheer and utter debauchery and damaging behaviour under the guise of feminism like we are seeing in this thread right now. it needs to stop. It's unhealthy.

Your views are unhealthy and facile.

For me the jury is out.

For sure, it's never the victims fault but when we have so many psychologists saying that appearance leads to objectification and it's proven that objectification can increase propensity for violence....well, I'm not going to ignore them based on how I want things to be. I'm only interested in the facts and data, I don't care about feminist posturing.

Must be an influx of MRM on the feminism board or something and some naive misguided albeit established posters joining the chorus of victim blaming. baffling

OK, but my point is that the issues in Middle Eastern countries run far deeper than clothing so your personal example isn't really relevant to what I was saying - I don't mean that offensively. It's like me saying I'm an atheist and you trying to quote the bible to me as proof of how the world was created.

Spousal rape isn't even illegal in many of those countries, neither is beating your wife. So the mindset is different. In western countries I'd imagine the profile of a rapist is different. Either they have serious mental incapacity/inability to judge social norms or there's something in their personality/life experience that's caused them to seriously trangress acceptable behavior.

I'm not sure the above is necessarily the case with men from places like Afghanistan. They're not actually committing a crime (in their society) by raping their wife and they haven't been brought up with the idea that women are equal. They probably don't even see that they're trangressing.

But if you're going to disagree with a significant amount of data (which it's absolutely your choice to) then can you provide any studies that support what you're saying? I'm not saying this to be obtuse. I'm just interested in looking at it from all sides. I'm seeing industry experts claiming that either there's not enough data to make a definitive statement or that appearance/clothing may possibly affect it. Then I'm seeing feminists that are 100% certain clothing doesn't affect it, but usually they're basing this belief on feminist ideology rather than data. I may be wrong about the latter but nobody seems to be posting data to support their arguments.

Many? Really? There aren’t that many actually. Some of the studies were quite old as well, and at least one I had an issue with how it was conducted. The one where there was a woman wearing trakkies and a tshirt playing ball games and a woman in a dress and heels playing ball games. Was it really the clothing (or lack of) or the fact that it was completely inappropriate for the occasion?

There’s also one study that showed similar results but this time alcohol related. One woman with a bottle of water, one with a bottle of beer. Do you also believe women should not drink ever? Not even one bottle of beer or glass of wine? Because “many” scientists said so?

Here’s the thing, it’s not that I necessarily disbelieve these studies, it’s that they aren’t done in a vacuum. They come on a background of years and years of mysoginy, oppression , women being seen as less than, rape myths , victim blaming and so on. We grow up with these ideas, we see them in the home, hear them at school, see them in the media. We grow up with them and we are shaped by them. We internalise them. We are so ready to offer excuses to men and put responsibility on the women.

Be friendly , but not too friendly. Be aloof, but not too aloof. Be polite but not too polite. Be nice but not too nice. Be kind, but not too kind. Be pretty but not too pretty. Be attractive, but not too attractive. Be smart, but not too smart. Have a drink , have a laugh, have some fun, but not too much.

@MagicMichaelCaine I think you're missing the point. This isn't about whether or not what women are wearing affects their risk of getting raped. It's about the simple fact that IT SHOULDN'T.

Men need to learn not to rape. What that will take, I don't know. And frankly I don't care. If it means kicking a convicted rapist in the nuts every day, let's do it. They're the ones committing the crime, they're the ones who should make the change. Not their victims.

Another possibility is that they see western women as 'whores' because of a perceived lack of modesty (in their own eyes). So while they may molest western women regardless of what they wear, the belief may still stem from things like western women having sex before marriage, dressing 'immorally', not being subservient to men etc. They likely already have a view of western women long before they see one in front of them and that view could influence their behaviour.

Firstly, I’m really sorry that you experienced the abuse you described - that’s awful.

But I have to disagree that all abusers just abuse without a chosen victim type. I’m sure some do but some defo have a chosen demographic.

There is no way that any of this should have any impact on the rights of women or their freedom. As I said before, men would probably argue that the safest place for a woman is indoors, married and covered when in fact that is the place where they are most likely to be abused.

I was simply asking or questioning this argument which I hear all the time that rape is never about sex. I just don’t understand how anyone could know or prove that.

I still think a daily kick in the nuts if they commit rape would be a good attitude adjustment there.

I recall a case from my native Netherlands of a man from the Indian subcontinent who was in court for beating his wife - he put her in hospital. His defence was that he had beaten her acceptably and in accordance with the customs of their country. The judge told him that he was now living in the Netherlands and that the custom here was to not beat your wife. He got a looooong jail sentence.

Men need to be better. End. Of.

Absolutely agree with this.

I feel it’s just part of misogyny. They have an understanding among the men in their community that they won’t molest their daughters, sisters etc and they know the backlash from the men in the women’s family will be vicious if they do.

So it’s easier for them to mess with women outside their own culture/community. IF they have access to other women that is.

If they don’t, their “own” women will be victimised by them too.

I mean have a white European friend who was raped in India, but I know plenty of Indian women are subjected to sexual assault too.

And if you go to Thailand, it tends to be old western men taking advantage of the relaxed laws on prostitution and the abuse of young women.

It’s always easy to think men from other cultures are worse than ours. Men are men - and abusers come in all shapes and colours.

The tendency to treat women from other cultures as less than and more acceptable to abuse is not exclusive to non western men.

No, I'm not missing the point. Posters are trying to shoehorn in an argument which isn't anything to do with what I'm saying.

This isn't about whether or not what women are wearing affects their risk of getting raped. It's about the simple fact that IT SHOULDN'T.

This is the fundamental bit that seems to be causing issues. The OP's thread is 100% about whether clothing affects risk of sexual assault. The first video makes that pretty clear.

However, I'm not really interested in what should or shouldn't happen. I'm trying to find out what does happen because that's actually something tangible that can be addressed.

My neighbour's dog shouldn't bite me because it should be well socialised. However, if it jumps into my yard and starts snarling at me I'm going to go back inside pronto. I'm not going to stand there waiting to get bitten just because it shouldn't bite me. That's not victim blaming. I can take steps to preserve my own safety even if I shouldn't have to, and in that example I think you'd be stupid not to.

The fact that so many women get raped is concrete proof that what 'shouldn't' happen is in fact happening a lot. We can either pretend this isn't the case or we can accept the grim reality and try and deal with it. That's what I'm getting at.

Men need to be better. End. Of.

I see this argument a lot. I mean, I'm not saying I disagree. It's just that it's stating the bloody obvious.

We can say 'car thieves need to stop stealing cars. End of', but why would they if there's no incentive. I just don't understand why this view is so common among feminists. I often see them saying things like "well, what can we do? It's men that need to shape up". And then you have women in the police force, judicial system, armed forces, etc, who are actually doing something practical.

It just baffles me why those who shout the loudest and make it a huge part of their identity are the first to back off and make excuses as to why they can't do anything. Not aiming that at anybody in particular.

@Bex5490
I’m just saying that I don’t know how anyone can be so certain that all rape is committed only due to the desire to dominate and never in the pursuit of sexual gratification.

There have been lots of studies done on this. I'm very interested to read the ones demonstrating that serious assault is done purely for sexual gratification and not to degrade, subjugate, punish, humiliate and otherwise show contempt for that person. As I stated, it has been found that rapists are turned on by violence and non consensual sex.

Could you please provide the studies on rapists having a 'type".

Can you link any of the ones you mention? I'm really interested to read them. Not saying that to be funny, I'm genuinely interested.

And noone particularly cares about your opinions. You're on the feminist board therefore you're going to hear the opinions of feminists which you seem very dismissive of.

Scientists haven't found a link between sexual assault and appearance, some studies have found a link between appearance and objectification/dehumanisation. You have to remember that men are more likely to be attacked by other men and men are also raped. It's not a soley female crime.

Rape is common within domestic abuse which, when committed by men on women, is a gendered crime founded on misogyny. Abusers dehuminise their victims because they hate women. That has nothing to do with what their partner is wearing or sexual desire, it's part of a pattern of control and dominance.

Men in countries where women are subjugated, rape because they don't see women as having agency or personhood. In fact these women are often devoid of human rights one of which is self determination. Of course they 'slut shame' Western women, a lot of energy is focused on controlling women and girl's sexuality. Family 'honour' is tied up with controlling women's 'purity'.

However due to the low status of women, rape and sexual assault is rife and blamed on women because men aren't capable of controlling their 'desire'. It's been shown that there's more rape where men can get away with it.

I didn't mention this as it's quite personal and probs would've made me angry if people had made snarky comments or accused me of making it up, but I was sexually assaulted on a night out in my early 20s. I was wearing pretty revealing clothing and the guy had actually made some pretty creepy comments to me at the bar about my legs. I defo felt this was what drew his attention to me.

When I got the bouncers to let me out to the cashpoint (bar only accepted cash) he followed me round the corner and kept trying to put his arms around me. I headbutted him and pretty sure it broke his nose. I was training in Thai boxing 4x a week at that stage and competing in interclub smokers. One of the main things you practice is clinching the opponent (wrapping your arms around back of their head) and you then pull them forward as you knee/throw downward elbows. I did this but pulled his head forwards as I headbutted him, which is what my instructor had taught me one day as a self defence move.

There was lots of blood and I ran back around the corner to the bouncers but I dread to think what could've happened to other women or if he'd somehow pinned me down or grabbed my arms. I dunno. It wasn't my fault but I feel he definitely picked me out by my appearance.