How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

Under his eye. You’d make a great Aunt!

@Hadmysay You did not answer my earlier question.

I asked if you think there was less racism and that life was better for black people in the 1950s because there were less people prosecuted for racist attacks than there are now?

Again not true in most cases.

The law isn't true in most cases? Can you explain how?

I'm not sure either way tbh. Those studies posted earlier on thread defo seem to be suggesting that how people perceive you from your appearance can alter their behaviour toward you. They specifically said the research was intended to investigate the link between sexual assault and clothing/objectification. I don't think it said that this was just for assaults from strangers.

I'm also not sure whether comparing to middle Eastern countries is really a good comparison because no women there wear skimpy clothing so we can't really judge whether this makes a difference. But we know that when men from those countries come here they focus their assaults on western women. Like the 1200 sexual assaults on that new year's eve in Germany. Also when western women go to places like Egypt they are at increased risk. I remember the Lara Logan incident. Before they mass assaulted her they were apparently making lewd comments in their own language which the people with her picked up on.

You misunderstood the research. The research found that there was a link between appearance and sexual objectification.

Women were dehumanised because of how people have been conditioned to view them. These studies show that there is a problem with how society - both men and women - view women.

In order to lower incidents of rape and sexual assault, we need to challenge sexual objectification, misogyny and rape myths.

In countries such as Egypt, Egyptian women are routinely sexually harassed. Not just tourists, that's because of pervasive misogyny, not because of what women are wearing.

However, if you can find evidence that clearly demonstrates that victims of sexual assault are predominantly wearing tight or revealing clothes, I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong.

Women were dehumanised because of how people have been conditioned to view them.

Does it say this in the study? I didn't manage to get through it all as it was pages and pages. I'd have thought that it could equally just be men seeing them as a means to an end. Seeing flesh triggers their sex drive and then the woman just becomes a sex object, a means to an end. Like how animals just become food in our eyes.

You misunderstood the research. The research found that there was a link between appearance and sexual objectification.

No, that's exactly what I thought it was saying. The point of the study was that when women are objectified there is lower empathy toward them. In animals this process makes us more inclined to hurt/kill them as they just become something to be used. The study is looking at how this mechanism impacts women.

I don't think we can call it conclusive at this point, even the study says more research is needed. But I don't think we can rule it out yet at this point and say that women wearing sexualised nothing has no impact on their safety. That's just my view.

However, if you can find evidence that clearly demonstrates that victims of sexual assault are predominantly wearing tight or revealing clothes, I'd be happy to admit I'm wrong.

Sorry, meant to reply to this too. Nobody has said that the victims are predominantly wearing tight clothes. Unless it was another poster earlier on. But I defo didn't.

The question is whether if affects it at all. It doesn't have to be predominantly. It could be 1% and that would still be thousands of women.

But if we need to challenge sexual objectification to lower rapes like you say, it sounds like you agree that objectification is a factor in women's safety.

@MagicMichaelCaine

Seeing flesh triggers their sex drive and then the woman just becomes a sex object,

That's not what rape is. Rape is about violence, dominance and power. Rape isn't about sex.

As has been stated many times, women who have their movements controlled including their clothes, are raped. Nuns are raped. The elderly are raped. Men are raped.

It hasn't been found that the criteria linking victims is clothes. Not even 1%.

Rape and sexual assault are crimes, not acts of passion.

The perpetuation of rape myths mean that victims are blamed and shamed and the attention isn't on rape culture and the perpetrators.

Women are objectified and dehumanised and VAWAG is at crisis levels. Their clothes aren't to blame, their culture is. We have such low convictions for rape that it's being carried out with impunity.

That’s the thing about rapists, they don’t care if you’re “up for it.”

They don't, but they sure love to think you were as it absolves them from any guilt.

That's not what rape is. Rape is about violence, dominance and power. Rape isn't about sex.

Wrong. Sometimes it is about power and sometimes it is about sex.
It really depends on the rapist.
There are men that rape women because they watch too much porn.
Sometimes it's about the constant sexual images they are seeing on a daily basis and they want it but they can't get it so they end up taking it.
There are men that rape women to punish them.
All horrific and disgusting but there are different reasons

I don't know. I haven't looked into it. But let's stay on topic since we are talking about objectification and sexual assaults not racism.

OP you're in no way an expert so I'm bemused at your arrogance.

If the perpetrator is raping because they've watched too much porn, it's because they've completely dehumanised women and only see them through the lense of sexual objectification. Porn subjugates women.

Rape like a lot of porn, is about dominance and power over others. Pushed to the extreme, rape during war is about the subjugation and humiliation of the enemy.

To rape is to deny someone agency or personhood. As pointed out many times, rapists dehumanise their victims.

As a rule, I don't take advice on feminism from countries where women are rarely seen or heard in public, or where they need to be escorted everywhere by a man.

This thread isn't about feminism, it's about slut shaming Western women and girls.

In which case it is very much about feminism as it concerns women and girls being discriminated against on account of their sex.

Have you ever visited England?

Are you Muslim op?

You clearly have strong views on western women’s dress, perhaps the summer is difficult given people dress in comfortable, light clothes for the heat, and you don’t like it. I have read every one of your posts and vehemently disagree with you.

We live in the West, here we have the right to dress and do as we please. No need for modesty if we are not in the mood for it. We can be creative with our clothes, experiment and express ourselves, lots of clothes or in some places no clothes at all, and that is part of OUR culture. Our democracy. It starts and ends with freedom. Freedom to do exactly as we please.

I am proud of this liberation. Proud we do not live in a controlling society. Proud that our girls feel empowered to wear what they like. Empowered to be completely ourselves.

You may not like it, but you are also free to wear what you like if you live here. Rape happens the world over since the beginning of time, it especially happens in places where women are controlled and have no voice.

I should think your campaign for women should start there - perhaps in the Middle East and places like Pakistan where females are treated like animals (I have lived there and it was a horrendous experience) Start by giving wonen rights the world over, freedom of expression and safety op. They have lot to learn from the West in many respects.

Fitasafiddle1

👋👋👋

My point - which I think you understand and are therefore dodging - is that it would be absurd to think that there was less racism just because it was less reported.

It is an absolutely insane argument to say that there is more sexual violence now just because it is more reported.

Or more in one country than another because of the amount of prosecutions.

In some of the countries you describe, it is legal to marry a 15 year old. In the UK that is considered statutory rape. So every one of those marriages here would count as a sexual assault. So how is it any way comparable?

I don’t even know why anyone (including me) is biting tbh @Hadmysay .

What you are arguing for is a lack of agency for women which is dangerous however you look at it.

We will never agree.

Can you not read. I said it DEPENDS on the rapist and SOMETIMES it's about sex yes sometimes it's about power but sometimes it's about both.
I already told you men constantly seeing sexual images around them,porn,half naked schoolgirls and women everywhere they look,especially what they can't get sometimes leads to them taking it.

There's a considerable body of research around the reasons why men rape. You appear to have not read any of it. You are therefore not to be taken seriously.

If I said to you what I really think of you, I would be banned.