How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

Whatever men need to do to stop being raped is irrelevant to the discussion about clothing because as I mentioned above the dehumanising affect seems mainly to affect the perception of women. That's why you don't hear much mention of 'the objectification of men'.

But tbh it's a bit cheeky to keep demanding that I answer your questions when you won't answer mine. I'm making an effort to address your arguments and I'm providing loads of studies. So before I answer any more of your questions you'll have to answer at least one of mine.

Would you leave your purse on the car seat? 😂

Rape isn’t caused by clothing. It happens to nuns, children, and war victims—fully clothed, veiled or in uniform. It’s about power. Claims that women are 'safer' in places like Saudi Arabia ignore brutal underreporting, criminalisation of victims, and extreme stigma. Women in many cultures are forced into marriage with their rapist. Apparent 'safety' under surveillance, suppression, and threat is not safety—it’s control.

@CocoChaneI
I haven't referred to you as the OP. You're not engaging with the points being made and seem to be doing a swift reverse ferret.

You have argued throughout that women are responsible for being victims because of their clothing and behaviour. You said that scantily clad women were obviously 'up for it'. You even said that something as innocuous as a 'Hello Boys' T shirt could titilate predators.

You've ignored the argument that rape is sky high in countries where women dress 'modestly' and are controlled, that more men than women are raped by strangers, that women are predominantly raped by men they know and there's no evidence to support the claim that clothes trigger rape.

I'm saying the jury is still out and you're saying it absolutely doesn't affect it, which I don't think we can categorically state to be a certainty.

Where's the evidence?

You've done nothing throughout this thread but victim blame.

We live in a misogynist society where women are dehumanised no matter what they do. I've already explained the paradigm of the 'perfect victim' and the mother/whore dichotomy.

Men and women are raped for the same reason.

And you seem to be falling into the same trap as trans activists when they claim that any evidence showing that humans can't change sex is 'transphobic'.

I've just pointed out that there is plenty of research suggesting that clothing may affect sexual assault statistics and you've decided that's 'misogynistic'. 🤣

Your rapist boyfriend isn't going to be triggered and suddenly dehumanise and attack you because you've come out of the shower.

You seem to have a very simplified view of this. It doesn't have to be your boyfriend. It can be your boyfriend's mate who always thought you were up for it and has been having dodgy thoughts for a while. The question is what factors influenced him in sexualising you in the first place? Would he have looked at you same way if he viewed you as 'frumpy' or 'frigid' as opposed to being 'up for it'?

Unfortunately for your 'argument', there's no link between appearance and rape.

So clothing isn't part of appearance? Because there's a definite link between clothing and dehumanisation. And there's a definite link between dehumanisation and violence.

@CocoChaneI

It's not me that has the simplified view. You're the one that has magical thinking.

Clothing doesn't effect assault statistics, because in countries where women are in Burkas, they're still sexually assaulted.

It doesn't have to be your boyfriend. It can be your boyfriend's mate who always thought you were up for it and has been having dodgy thoughts for a while.

He's a rapist, he's going to have plenty of 'dodgy thoughts,' that doesn't mean he should act on them.

Would he have looked at you same way if he viewed you as 'frumpy' or 'frigid' as opposed to being 'up for it'?

You think rape is based on attractiveness! You think that only 'attractive' women get raped. You're the gift that keeps on giving.

So clothing isn't part of appearance? Because there's a definite link between clothing and dehumanisation. And there's a definite link between dehumanisation and violence.

Women are dehumanised because we live in a misogynist society. However men also get raped. It's far easier to attack either sex when you've dehumanised them. Ethnic minorites are attacked because of dehumanisation, this is pretty basic stuff.

There's a link between appearance and dehumanisation which doesn't just apply to women.

I haven't referred to you as the OP.

You literally started your post with "Here's the thing OP". The one you posted at 00:50.

Where's the evidence?

I've posted two separate articles. The last one is on the previous page. I don't see how you could've missed it given the length of it. I stated that the jury is still out as there is lots of data suggesting dehumanisation is linked to violence. I then posted loads of that data as evidence of my claim that there was lots of data.

You said that scantily clad women were obviously 'up for it'.

No, I said that some men may think this, and that this assumption may be influenced by the fact that some women do dress to attract male attention (giving the example that I'd done this when younger).

You even said that something as innocuous as a 'Hello Boys' T shirt could titilate predators.

No, I gave this as an example of clothing intended to attract male attention.

You've ignored the argument that rape is sky high in countries where women dress 'modestly' and are controlled.

Nope. I addressed that point too. I'm not going to repeat myself.

Where's the evidence?

You've done nothing throughout this thread but victim blame.

Where's your evidence?

You're just making wild claims that don't reflect what's been posted. I'm not sure whether you're just being disingenuous or whether you genuinely can't grasp the discussion but it's making you look like a bit of an idiot tbh.

You keep accusing me of victim blaming whilst I'm literally saying "obviously, it's never the victim’s fault". 🤣

It's far easier to attack either sex when you've dehumanised them.

So after all this you agree with me. 🤣🤣🤣

@CocoChaneI

I'm not the one using laughing emojis and thinking it makes me look intelligent.

The only evidence you've supplied are studies that show women are dehumanised by men and women. We live in a misogynist society and that goes without saying.

You haven't provided evidence of a link between appearance and rape. You've provided studies of women being dehumanised in a misogynist society. I believe the Pope is Catholic.

You're now denying all your victim blaming throughout the thread.

If it's never the victim's fault what's your argument?

The sad thing is that it could potentially help in finding solutions if we were to stop dogmatically ignoring every bit of data we don't like.

As above, it's never the victim's fault. However, if it turns out that certain types of clothing do affect the likelihood of sexual assault through the dehumanisation affect then that gives us insight into the problematic male psychology we need to deal with.

And war rape isn't really the same thing. That's more used an a specific weapon to intimate and suppress populations. And this is a problem I often see with feminism. The desire to want to lump all male violence together.

Yes, it is all male violence strictly speaking. But that's like saying it's all human violence. There are specific types of crime that need specific ways of tackling them. Honour based killings in the Muslim community are completely different to knife crimes amongst black inner city youths.

You haven't provided evidence of a link between appearance and rape.

Well a link between appearance (clothing) and sexual assault is kinda the same thing.

@CocoChaneI

Rape, sexual assault and domestic abuse stem from misogyny. It doesn't matter what you wear, you are still vulnerable to attack.

The way to deal with it is not to tell women what to wear or control what they do; it's to tackle the root cause.

Women are seen as less than and rape is about power and control, it's not about sexual desire. That's why it's ludicrous to suggest that only 'attractive' people are raped.

War rape is the same thing and both men and women are raped in war. The enemy is dehumanised, humiliated and violated. Women are often kidnapped as spoils of war as they're seen as chattel.

The focus needs to move away from the victim to the perpetrators.

You've provided some studies that show women are dehumanised and people who are dehumanised are vulnerable to attack. Everyone can be dehumanised and vulnerable to attack: ethnic minorites, LGBTQ, immigrants, the elderly, the disabled, certain religious groups.

Yes, everybody can be dehumanised. That doesn't mean we should just ignore the individual ways in which this happens and not try to understand the factors which contribute to it.

You're now denying all your victim blaming throughout the thread.

If it's never the victim's fault what's your argument?

I've said at least five times now it's never the victim's fault. Right from the start. I don't think there's much I can do to make it clearer but you still seem to be making odd claims to the contrary.

I keep explaining to you that I'm not focusing solely on blame and 'fault' like you seem to be. I'm looking at the factors that contribute to sexual assault and the breakdown of inhibition. Things like dehumanisation and what contributes to it (e.g. things like objectification which are more likely to happen when we sexualise a person).

As I keep saying, somebody can be innocent and yet still make decisions that improve their safety. Hence, my analogy about not walking underneath a structurally unsound scaffold even though I'm not responsible for the maintenance and shouldn't ever be exposed to this risk in the first place. It seems you'd call it victim blaming to suggest that walking underneath the scaffolding is unwise.

@CocoChaneI

You're using magical thinking again.

Let's reexamine the facts:

86% of women are raped by someone they know
43% of men are raped by a stranger

Men are therefore more in danger of stranger rape than women and both are raped for the same reasons.

Rape is an assertion of violence, dominance and control over the victim. The reason rape is higher in some countries is because of rape culture.

Rape is used as a punishment in some countries, women have few rights and men see women's bodies as something they're entitled to.

Men rape more when they can get away with it. We know for a fact that appearance has nothing to do with rape because no direct correlation has been found. People of all ages, shapes, sizes and in all manner of attire have been raped.

If you want to focus on helping people not be raped by strangers, it's best to start with men as they're in most danger.

I don’t think clothes choice has any correlation to SA

I do think women are disingenuous when they dress in very revealing clothes and then criticise men for looking

Crimes went up

Source/facts for that? Not just your opinion.

https://www.tiktok.com/@ddp8792/video/7509271473366830378

Maybe get off social media and brain rot like tiktok?

Spousal rape is not recognised as a crime in Saudi Arabia. So I would imagine an awful lot of women are in fact getting raped - by their husbands. Can't believe you think that kind of covering up is protective rather than utterly misogynist.

There seem to be two separate arguments being made on this thread neither of which are mutually exclusive. Some posters are saying we shouldn't have to police our clothing to stop men assaulting us (which I agree with).

The others are pointing out that regardless of this the data suggests that when women are sexually objectified it reduces empathy towards them and leads to men viewing them more as sex objects than people, similar to how it's easier to kill an animal when we view it as food. These posters are saying that regardless of ethics and what we 'should' be able to do, the data is suggesting that we are potentially able to reduce our likelihood of being a victim and that we should acknowledge this rather than try and dismiss it so that women are able to make their own informed decisions (e.g. prioritising their personal safety over making a feminist point) and that without having the facts they won't be in the position to do this, which is a viewpoint that also makes sense.

@MagicMichaelCaine

the data is suggesting that we are potentially able to reduce our likelihood of being a victim

No it's not. You've missed out other data which demonstrates that women are less likely to be victims of strangers than men. That there's no direct correlation between appearance and likelihood of attack. That sexual assault is based on power, control and violence. That sexual assault is very high where women's behaviour and clothes are policed. That 86% of female victims are attacked by someone they know.

Just because something isn't considered a crime and is legal doesn't mean most men are doing it. Or are you implying most saudi men rape their wives? For example up untill fairly recent it was legal to upskirt a woman i,e take a picture up her skirt yet none of the women I know have ever had that happen to them.

The Personal Status Law requires women to obtain a male guardian’s permission to marry, codifying the country’s longstanding practice. Married women are required to obey their husbands in a “reasonable manner.” A husband’s financial support is specifically contingent on a wife’s “obedience,” and she can lose her right to such support if she refuses without a “legitimate excuse” to have sex with him, move to or live in the marital home, or travel with him. The law further states that neither spouse may abstain from sexual relations or cohabitation without the other spouse’s consent, implying a marital right to intercourse.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/03/08/saudi-arabia-law-enshrines-male-guardianship

By law they're not raping their wives because a woman doesn't have the right to refuse sex to her husband.

Women who are raped in SA are often punished for having affairs or for sex outside marriage.Therefore it's rarely reported.