Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: chat

How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

1000 replies

Hadmysay · 20/05/2025 19:54

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Hadmysay · 26/05/2025 03:16

Foxonbanister · 25/05/2025 01:45

Pornography, rape and clothes designed to objectify women for the male gaze – and the accompanying internalised misogyny – are all part of the same thing.

Equally, assault is certainly not in any way the fault of girls or women who are assualted, whatever they wear.

This is all I'm saying.
I agree with everything you've said

OP posts:
Hadmysay · 26/05/2025 03:24

TropicalRain · 25/05/2025 11:25

You don't understand, the thesis of the OP is whether how Western women dress increases rape. It does not. End of.

Your obsession with what victims do is not relevant here to the OP's question and no one who has rebutted the OP's thesis has said women should 'walk under scaffolding all day long'. Women are always discussing ways they try to keep safe, self defence classes, pepper spray whatever. We do that because the system is misogynistic.

You are arguing the wrong point.

whether how Western women dress increases rape. It does not. End of.

How do you know this though?
Infact if you look at the history you will find it actually does and it actually did. I don't think many of you have actually studied the history of the country or the culture.
Remember women never used to dress like this and what happened when they started doing it amongst other unhealthy lifestyle choices?
Statistically rape went up,sexual assaults went up and paedophilia went up.
This has been happening since the 60s and 70s.
Many of you thought encouraging debauchery and scantily cladness was a good thing when it lead to nothing but generational trauma and damage.

OP posts:
WhenYouSayNothingAtAll · 26/05/2025 07:35

Hadmysay · 26/05/2025 03:24

whether how Western women dress increases rape. It does not. End of.

How do you know this though?
Infact if you look at the history you will find it actually does and it actually did. I don't think many of you have actually studied the history of the country or the culture.
Remember women never used to dress like this and what happened when they started doing it amongst other unhealthy lifestyle choices?
Statistically rape went up,sexual assaults went up and paedophilia went up.
This has been happening since the 60s and 70s.
Many of you thought encouraging debauchery and scantily cladness was a good thing when it lead to nothing but generational trauma and damage.

Did the crimes go up, or did laws change and as a society we (painfully slowly) started to believe victims and acknowledge them? look at all the cases of historical CSA . Look at the Catholic church scandals. Think about the fact that marital rape wasn’t a crime until the 90s.
Rape was(and still is) always about power, control and violence, not clothing. There’s a reason why it’s been a weapon of war since times immemorial.

Ifpicklesweretickles · 26/05/2025 08:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This is so woman hating. Even if it did contribute then its still entirely men's fault and it's men that need to be controlled and managed nd women don't need to change their own behaviour to stop henius acts.

Ifpicklesweretickles · 26/05/2025 08:48

Op in western countries short skirts and dresses have always been worn by children. Women dress the way they want and are most comfortable in. Skin tight or "small" clothing often is the most practical and easier to wear which is why exercise gear is small. When it is hot people bare their skin and bodies and that's normal.

Small children get followed in some areas by men from some communities and what areas they are and what communities they are we all especially if not on mumsnet know, regardless of how they dress. It's not been a problem for years until the recent changes in society and it's these changes that need dealing with, not the length of girls skirts. Current grandmothers in their micro mini skirts in the 50s didn't feel threatened nor did people have views like yours.

You came somewhere civilised and free and are trying to change it, please go and live somewhere that is more suited to your woman-hating views, the world is literally your oyster.

Stop concerning yourself with the lenght of girls skirts and concern yourself with the behaviour of some men.

Bex5490 · 26/05/2025 11:37

Hadmysay · 26/05/2025 03:24

whether how Western women dress increases rape. It does not. End of.

How do you know this though?
Infact if you look at the history you will find it actually does and it actually did. I don't think many of you have actually studied the history of the country or the culture.
Remember women never used to dress like this and what happened when they started doing it amongst other unhealthy lifestyle choices?
Statistically rape went up,sexual assaults went up and paedophilia went up.
This has been happening since the 60s and 70s.
Many of you thought encouraging debauchery and scantily cladness was a good thing when it lead to nothing but generational trauma and damage.

This argument is so redundant.

It’s the equivalent of saying that during the years of segregation or slavery society was less racist because there were less reported incidents of racism.

TropicalRain · 26/05/2025 15:01

Hadmysay · 26/05/2025 03:24

whether how Western women dress increases rape. It does not. End of.

How do you know this though?
Infact if you look at the history you will find it actually does and it actually did. I don't think many of you have actually studied the history of the country or the culture.
Remember women never used to dress like this and what happened when they started doing it amongst other unhealthy lifestyle choices?
Statistically rape went up,sexual assaults went up and paedophilia went up.
This has been happening since the 60s and 70s.
Many of you thought encouraging debauchery and scantily cladness was a good thing when it lead to nothing but generational trauma and damage.

I don't know any woman who has encouraged debauchery and scantily clad dressing.

Everyone deserves to feel whole and free in their bodies, women, men and children, of all shapes, sizes and abilities. Every woman I know without exception is fighting towards that in some way or the other, either on a micro scale or on a large scale. True, the pain inflicted by misogyny can make some women internalise the misogyny and engage in victim blaming, despite all the information and data. But doesn't change the fact that rapists are responsible for rape, however much misogyny would like us all to give these men a little leeway by taking away some of their responsibility and placing it on the victim, society, clothes manufacturers, trends, orbiting planets, etc

MiloMinderbinder925 · 26/05/2025 16:23

Hadmysay · 26/05/2025 03:15

I never once claimed that pakistan is perfect for women or that they never go through these things.
Percentage wise they experience these things far less. Didn't you see the statistics I posted?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

Heck we can even look here in the uk. We have pakistani women over here that cover and they are far less victimized than the average british women so I actually don't think you have a good point at all. Or are you going to deny it?
Once again I'm not saying dress is the only reason for rape but in the UNITED KINGDOM it's a big part of the problem. Every country has different reasons and causes for these things.

OP you keep pointing at the same statistics and claiming that rape is far less in Pakistan when it's renowned as one of the most unsafe places on earth for women. Rape is rarely reported.

Women are highly controlled in Pakistan, their behaviour and clothes are controlled yet they aren't safe.

Clothes aren't a concern in the UK because women and girls are in danger from those they know. 1/3 of sexual attacks happen in a woman's home and a half of all rapes are by a partner or former partner.

Domestic abuse including sexual assault is very high in the UK Pakistani community.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 26/05/2025 16:26

Hadmysay · 26/05/2025 03:16

This is all I'm saying.
I agree with everything you've said

Equally, assault is certainly not in any way the fault of girls or women who are assualted, whatever they wear.

Then why have you been blaming women and girl's clothes and saying women are the root of sexual assault?

GrouachMacbeth · 26/05/2025 19:09

Is it? I thought islamic law required four male witnesses for the defence. The evidence of a female is not equal to that if a male.

Bex5490 · 26/05/2025 19:26

Can I ask @Hadmysay , do you think America is less safe for black people now than 50 years ago because there are more reports of racist crimes?

CocoChaneI · 26/05/2025 20:50

Kuretake · 25/05/2025 16:39

I just don't understand how this is at all relevant to the rape question. If I leave my purse on my car seat then opportunistic thieves can access it. Dressing more modestly does not make my vagina less accessible to rapists. How are the two scenarios linked?

I did explain my point earlier. It was about the prevalent belief in feminist thought that we shouldn't have to change our behaviour due to the wrongful acts of others. I agree that we shouldn't in theory, but many seem to suggest that we shouldn't in practice which is risky.

This is where I disagree which is why I was giving everyday examples of where most women don't follow this logic and actually exercise caution when necessary, even if they shouldn't need to in a perfect world.

Milowhatever clearly saw the logic in this point which is why she repeatedly refused to answer the purse on seat question. If she'd disagreed that we should take sensible measures even when not in the wrong she'd have argued why she leaves her purse on the seat.

CocoChaneI · 26/05/2025 20:53

Bex5490 · 25/05/2025 22:01

@Hadmysay and @CocoChaneI I agree with you both that it would be sensible for women to take measures to avoid being sexually assaulted - if those measures didn’t negativity impact their freedom and were proven to work.

But they don’t…

Whenever there is a famous case of a stranger rape, Sarah Everard, Sabrina Nessa etc. the perpetrator has been out hunting for a lone female victim. Nothing to do with their clothes, all to do with their route home.

Preventative measures in these cases would be to stop women walking alone in the dark. And (sadly) I wouldn’t advise my daughter to walk home alone at night because of this, but are you suggesting we make these preventative measures law?

How Handmaids Tale of you!

No, I'm not suggesting that.

What do you think about my points around excessive drinking? Do you think this makes women more vulnerable or is it a non issue?

Bex5490 · 26/05/2025 20:59

CocoChaneI · 26/05/2025 20:53

No, I'm not suggesting that.

What do you think about my points around excessive drinking? Do you think this makes women more vulnerable or is it a non issue?

I agree that women shouldn’t drink excessively because it puts them at risk of lots of things.

Anyone who drinks to the point of oblivion is clearly at risk from: being robbed, losing their keys, losing their job, getting liver disease etc etc.

I don’t think men should excessively drink either.

There are no behaviours in women that I think exclusively make them more likely to be sexually assaulted. So I don’t think women should be restricted to drink less or cover up any more than men should be.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 26/05/2025 21:09

CocoChaneI · 26/05/2025 20:50

I did explain my point earlier. It was about the prevalent belief in feminist thought that we shouldn't have to change our behaviour due to the wrongful acts of others. I agree that we shouldn't in theory, but many seem to suggest that we shouldn't in practice which is risky.

This is where I disagree which is why I was giving everyday examples of where most women don't follow this logic and actually exercise caution when necessary, even if they shouldn't need to in a perfect world.

Milowhatever clearly saw the logic in this point which is why she repeatedly refused to answer the purse on seat question. If she'd disagreed that we should take sensible measures even when not in the wrong she'd have argued why she leaves her purse on the seat.

That isn't what I said four times is it cocowhatever?

You're being deliberately obtuse as usual. Your whole argument was that women are responsible for men's behaviour and if only they changed their behaviour, there would be less sexual assault.

Despite being informed that

a. Women are more likely to be attacked by someone they know
b. There's no evidence whatsoever that clothes make a difference

Despite repeatedly asking about purses on front seats and being told it's a ludicrous analogy given the facts, you're still at it.

This ladies and gentlemen is why men get away with it time and time again, idiots stubbornly repeat rape myths and victim blame.

IOSTT · 26/05/2025 21:30

OP is not listening to a word anyone else is saying, “they” will just keep repeating their misogynistic nonsense. LOCK UP THE MEN THAT CANNOT CONTROL THEMSELVES OP

CocoChaneI · 26/05/2025 21:47

MiloMinderbinder925 · 26/05/2025 16:26

Equally, assault is certainly not in any way the fault of girls or women who are assualted, whatever they wear.

Then why have you been blaming women and girl's clothes and saying women are the root of sexual assault?

I think you are confusing blame and causality.

We can all agree that it's not a woman's fault if a man assaults her. She should be able to wear what she wants.

This however does not mean that clothing does not in any way influence sexual assault. People keep saying this but it's far from proven.

I'm not saying it 100% does affect it but I've been looking at the studies and there seems to be a lot of data suggesting it may and it needs further investigation.

In a nutshell, it's been proven that dehumanisation increases the propensity for violence. When we see animals as food rather than pets we're much more prepared to harm them.

Many studies have now shown that when women dress in sexualised clothing both sexes see them as 'less human' and focus more on their physicality than their personality. The suggestion is that this potentially lowers inhibitions around harming these women.

That's just a very brief summary of a much more nuanced discussion. I'll post some excerpts.

CocoChaneI · 26/05/2025 21:59

From Attire to Assault: Clothing, Objectification, and De-humanization – A Possible Prelude to Sexual Violence?

In the context of objectification and violence, little attention has been paid to the perception neuroscience of how the human brain perceives bodies and objectifies them. Various studies point to how external cues such as appearance and attire could play a key role in encouraging objectification, dehumanization and the denial of agency.

Reviewing new experimental findings across several areas of research, it seems that common threads run through issues of clothing, sexual objectification, body perception, dehumanization, and assault.

Collating findings from several different lines of research, this article reviews additional evidence from cognitive and neural dynamics of person perception (body and face perception processes) that predict downstream social behavior. Specifically, new findings demonstrate cognitive processing of sexualized female bodies as object-like, a crucial aspect of dehumanized percept devoid of agency and personhood.

Sexual violence is a consequence of a dehumanized perception of female bodies that aggressors acquire through their exposure and interpretation of objectified body images. Integrating these findings and identifying triggers for sexual violence may help develop remedial measures and inform law enforcement processes and policy makers alike.

A myriad of issues in body and object perception, agency attribution and de-humanization highlight the centrality of psychological science in understanding how individuals become involved in violence, particularly sexual violence, in human society. In the recent past, several editorial and opinion articles published in popular news media have discussed the issue of sexual assault in the context of clothing and women’s attire.

When a series of articles open up to public discourse the question of how women’s attire is relevant to sexual assault, it seems pertinent to go a step further and examine the neuroscientific research on body perception and objectification. This is especially important when there is a relative paucity of research connecting the dots to offer a thoughtful and comprehensive framework within which to examine the issue.

A number of studies have examined the objectification of bodies in the context of whether they were covered or uncovered. It was found that when wearing underwear or a swimsuit, a person could be viewed as a mere body that exists for the pleasure and use of others (Bartky, 1990).

Sexual objectification has been related to decreased mind attribution (Loughnan et al., 2010) and diminished agency perception (Cikara et al., 2011). Sexualized women are perceived as less competent and less fully human (Vaes et al., 2011).

A focus on appearance rather than on personality diminished the degree of human nature attributed to females (Heflick and Goldenberg, 2009). The recognition and attribution of human nature is key to social perception, allowing people to differentiate humans from objects (Loughnan and Haslam, 2007).

However, it is not only men who dehumanize sexualized women and their representations. Widespread beliefs that women are sex objects are shared by both men and women at a basic cognitive level (Gervais et al., 2011, 2012; see also Heflick et al., 2011).

When women sexualize their appearance, they are at a far greater risk than men. A focus on appearance, instead of personality, increased the objectifying gaze toward women, as demonstrated by increased eye movements toward their chests and waists compared to their faces (Gervais et al., 2013b).

Through a series of experiments, Vaes et al. (2011) demonstrate that only objectified women were associated with less human concepts. The authors further show that sexually objectified women shift a man’s focus toward a female target, away from her personality and more onto her body, triggering a dehumanization process. In contrast, women dehumanize sexually objectified women by distancing themselves from the sexualized representations of their own gender category.

Another recent study points out that the perception of sexualized women deploys cognitive mechanisms specific to object perception, while sexualized men are perceived as persons (Bernard et al., 2012; also see Bernard et al., 2013; Tarr, 2013; Schmidt and Kistemaker, 2015). Specifically, Bernard et al. (2012) showed that sexualized female bodies are perceived as objects.

Consequences of Dehumanization: Prelude to Violence

As stated earlier, humans are distinguished from animals on attributes involving cognitive capacity, civility, and refinement, as well as from inanimate objects on the basis of emotionality, vitality, and warmth (Haslam and Loughnan, 2014).

Contrary to the belief that everyday forms of dehumanization are innocent and inconsequential, Kristoff (2014) has argued that the evidence reveals profoundly negative consequences for both victims and perpetrators. Dehumanization, the denial of agency and personhood contributes to large-scale intergroup conflict and violence (Haslam and Loughnan, 2014; Waytz et al., 2014). Dehumanization as a consequence of sexual objectification has dire consequences. Loughnan and Pacilli (2014) distinguish the consequences of objectification along the attitude/behavior distinction, highlighting an important aspect that has received less research attention.

On the attitudinal front, sexually objectified humans are likened to objects or automata with no capacity for qualities such as warmth, emotion, and individuality (Haslam, 2006). Cikara et al. (2011) report that viewing sexualized images of women reduced brain activation in areas for mental state attribution, while Vaes et al. (2011) showed that sexualized women are implicitly associated with animals by both male and female perceivers.

Milburn et al. (2000) examined perceptions of rape in an ethnically and socioeconomically diverse sample. The authors reported that those males who viewed sexually objectifying R-rated films reported diminished view of the victim’s suffering and thought the victim deserved sexual assault. In a sexually objectified context, the target’s clothing increased victim blaming and lower moral concern (Workman and Freeburg, 1999; Grubb and Harrower, 2009) in an acquaintance rape circumstance (Loughnan et al., 2013), highlighting animalization and infra-humanization as a result of clothing and objectification.

Another recent study examining the influence of sexual objectification on men and women’s rape perceptions, Bernard et al. (2015b) show that sexual objectification increased victim blaming and diminished rapist blame in cases of stranger rape. Both objectification and infra-humanisation make women vulnerable to violence. Similarly, research literature on the topic has established the sexualisation-to-meat link (Adams, 1990) wherein the denial of emotionality and agency reduces animals to meat producing units.

The capacity of the animal to suffer is perceived to be significantly less when the animal is perceived as food (Bratanova et al., 2011). Cruelty laws are differentially applied to pet and farm animals due to this distinction. Bongiorno et al. (2013) have argued that objectification results in reduction of human attributes to sexualised women and experimentally demonstrated that using sexualized images of women reduces support for ethical campaigns.

On the behavioral side, a number of studies (Bargh et al., 1995; Mussweiler and Förster, 2000; Landau et al., 2004; Gruenfeld et al., 2008) describe a complex interplay between power, sex, and aggression that might lead to violence toward presumed sexually appealing and available women. Some early research has shown that objectified women are subject to sexual harassment, sexual coercion and unwanted sexual attention (Fitzgerald et al., 1988), especially following exposure to objectifying media (Rudman and Borgida, 1995; Galdi et al., 2014) in public spaces by strangers (Fairchild and Rudman, 2008).

Men with hostile and aggressive views toward women are more likely to objectify. Further, attribution of animalistic lack of agency and reduced pain attribution results in higher likelihood of violence toward objectified targets. Rudman and Mescher (2012) demonstrate that men who implicitly associate women with animals and objects have a higher propensity for sexual aggression. Figueredo (1992) and Thornhill and Palmer (2000) have argued that males who commit rape are likely to have psychopathologies, social inadequacies, experience of childhood sexual trauma, lack of social competence and empathy (Stermac and Quinsey, 1986; Lipton et al., 1987; Lalumière et al., 2005). Sexual assaulters are similar to other violent offenders and tend to have extensive non-sexual criminal histories. Examining the impact of objectification in the domain of sexual assault, Loughnan et al. (2013) found that an objectified woman is blamed herself for being raped and is perceived to suffer less.

Dehumanization also underlies maltreatment and violence toward ethnic or racial minorities and animals. Reduced mind-attribution (as a result of dehumanization) makes it easier for the perpetrator to deny pain and agency to the dehumanized group. Research findings describe increased violent behavior, harsh treatment and reduced empathetic concern toward dehumanized targets (Zebel et al., 2008; Cehajic et al., 2009; Viki et al., 2013).

It seems predictable that sexual violence is a consequence of a dehumanized perception, particularly of female bodies and a generalized antisocial trait that aggressors acquire through their exposure and interpretation of body images. Providing additional evidence for the mediating role of objectification in sexual violence, Gervais et al. (2014) report that heavy drinking was associated positively with sexual objectification and sexual violence perpetrated by men.

Highlighting the sexual signaling function of clothing, Jeffreys (2005) points out that female clothing items also emphasize women as sexual objects aligned to male desires. Goodin et al. (2011) describe for instance, a man’s professional attire (generally a suit) disguises his underlying body shape, while a woman’s professional attire comprises a more form-fitting suit with a skirt that shows her legs, accompanied by high-heeled shoes.

Women in provocative clothing are rated s more flirtatious, seductive, promiscuous, and sexually experienced—and as less strong, determined, intelligent, and self-respecting (Koukounas and Letch, 2001; Gurung and Chrouser, 2007), emphasizing sexual availability and objectification. In contrast, Dunkel et al. (2010) demonstrate that young Muslim-American women wearing non-Western clothing and a head veil report significantly less pressure to attain the Western ideals of thin beauty, as compared to Muslim-American and non-Muslim women who wore Western-style clothing. Lahsaeizadeh and Yousefinejad (2012) describe the crucial interplay of attire in social contexts that determine the sexual harassment of women in public places.

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5344900/

MiloMinderbinder925 · 26/05/2025 22:10

CocoChaneI · 26/05/2025 21:47

I think you are confusing blame and causality.

We can all agree that it's not a woman's fault if a man assaults her. She should be able to wear what she wants.

This however does not mean that clothing does not in any way influence sexual assault. People keep saying this but it's far from proven.

I'm not saying it 100% does affect it but I've been looking at the studies and there seems to be a lot of data suggesting it may and it needs further investigation.

In a nutshell, it's been proven that dehumanisation increases the propensity for violence. When we see animals as food rather than pets we're much more prepared to harm them.

Many studies have now shown that when women dress in sexualised clothing both sexes see them as 'less human' and focus more on their physicality than their personality. The suggestion is that this potentially lowers inhibitions around harming these women.

That's just a very brief summary of a much more nuanced discussion. I'll post some excerpts.

I'm not the one who's confused. However I have a question for you:

The Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) in 2023 estimated 275,000 male victims experienced sexual assault since age 16, with around 12,000 men (aged 16-59) raped annually.

Can you provide evidence backing up your assertion about clothes and sexual assault regarding the many thousands of male rape victims? I'd be very interested to see it.

CocoChaneI · 27/05/2025 00:27

MiloMinderbinder925 · 26/05/2025 22:10

I'm not the one who's confused. However I have a question for you:

The Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) in 2023 estimated 275,000 male victims experienced sexual assault since age 16, with around 12,000 men (aged 16-59) raped annually.

Can you provide evidence backing up your assertion about clothes and sexual assault regarding the many thousands of male rape victims? I'd be very interested to see it.

Edited

First you'll have to clarify which assertion you mean because I specifically stated above that I'm not saying it does definitely affect it but that given the data we can't claim it doesn't. My comment is below.

'I'm not saying it 100% does affect it but I've been looking at the studies and there seems to be a lot of data suggesting it may and it needs further investigation.'

It's so frustrating trying to have any kind of debate with people that are married to a particular narrative or agenda - especially 'isms' like feminism, trans-activism, socialism, etc. It's not that I care if people disagree with me, but if they're going to be wholly unprepared to even acknowledge or consider any data that doesn't support their chosen reality then they're just really in the same boat as the nutters that use clownfish studies to try and say biological sex can change.

All we can say about clothing is that it may or may not affect the likelihood of sexual assault. Even the experts can't agree on it and certainly it's been acknowledged that the dehumanisation aspect needs more research undertaken.

What has been demonstrated multiple times is that both sexes see women in sexualised clothing as less human and have less empathy for them. It's also been demonstrated that a similar psychological process happens when we harm animals to make food and see them as objects/commodities rather than personalities as we do our pets.

None of this means it's women's 'fault'.

CocoChaneI · 27/05/2025 00:31

But if you want an answer to your gotcha about men then read the article I posted. It specifically discusses how the dehumanisation effect is much more prevalent with the male gaze than vice versa. I haven't fully read it all yet as there's a lot of info there, but it discusses how women are viewed differently to men. Which is the whole point of the research as this could help explain why men are more likely to perpetrate sexual violence.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 27/05/2025 00:50

@CocoChaneI

For the years ending March 2017 and March 2020 combined, victims who experienced sexual assault by rape or penetration since the age of 16 years were most likely to be victimised by their partner or ex-partner (44%). This was closely followed by someone who was known to them other than a partner or family member (37%), which includes friends (12%) and dates (10%).

More than one in seven women (15%) reported being assaulted by a stranger, whereas this was true for almost half of male victims (43%)

Here's the thing OP, men are far more likely to be raped by strangers than women 15% vs 43%.

As explained I don't know how many times, women are predominantly attacked by people they know.

We don't need studies telling us what we already know, that women are dehumanised and victim blamed based on their clothes. You've done it throughout the thread and it was the point of the thread.

What I'd like you to explain is how men should dress and act if they want to avoid being attacked by strangers.

CocoChaneI · 27/05/2025 01:13

MiloMinderbinder925 · 27/05/2025 00:50

@CocoChaneI

For the years ending March 2017 and March 2020 combined, victims who experienced sexual assault by rape or penetration since the age of 16 years were most likely to be victimised by their partner or ex-partner (44%). This was closely followed by someone who was known to them other than a partner or family member (37%), which includes friends (12%) and dates (10%).

More than one in seven women (15%) reported being assaulted by a stranger, whereas this was true for almost half of male victims (43%)

Here's the thing OP, men are far more likely to be raped by strangers than women 15% vs 43%.

As explained I don't know how many times, women are predominantly attacked by people they know.

We don't need studies telling us what we already know, that women are dehumanised and victim blamed based on their clothes. You've done it throughout the thread and it was the point of the thread.

What I'd like you to explain is how men should dress and act if they want to avoid being attacked by strangers.

Why do you keep repeating questions that have already been answered?

I'm not going to explain it again. Read my above post where I discuss men. It's on this same page.

With regard to strangers vs acquaintances I don't think there's any reason why the dehumanisation affect couldn't still apply. That acquaintance could be anybody who knows you from anywhere. Even somebody you just say hello to in the shop every morning or a mate of your ex who always thought you were 'up for it' and has been harbouring lewd fantasies for years.

But you agree that women are dehumanised based on their clothing so why is it such a stretch to imagine that this could aid in reducing the empathy of an individual who is a threat to them?

We already know that both sexes experience reduced empathy towards 'sexualised' women and we know that reduced empathy is a big factor in violence towards animals, ethnic minorities, and other groups (don't ask me for evidence of this please because I've already posted it above.)

MiloMinderbinder925 · 27/05/2025 01:24

@CocoChaneI

You haven't answered the questions. If men rape because of the victim's behaviour, what should men do to stop strangers attacking them?

Men are in more danger from other men, than women. What should they do to mitigate to their risk? Would you leave a purse on a car seat or wave a Rolex around?

Women are dehumanised full stop. Women are negatively judged on their appearances full stop. We live in a misogynist world as you full well know, given that you're part of the problem.

However the fact remains that more men than women are raped by a stranger. Women are predominantly raped by someone they know. The stats are above.

Your rapist boyfriend isn't going to be triggered and suddenly dehumanise and attack you because you've come out of the shower.

Unfortunately for your 'argument', there's no link between appearance and rape.

CocoChaneI · 27/05/2025 01:26

And I'm not sure why you're referring to me as 'OP'.

I think the issue is that you've turned this into an 'us and them' situation in your head. This might explain why you're confusing me with the OP.

In reality the only thing we seem to be disagreeing on is whether clothing may affect a woman's likelihood of experiencing sexual assault by creating a dehumanising effect. I'm saying the jury is still out and you're saying it absolutely doesn't affect it, which I don't think we can categorically state to be a certainty.

But everything else is projection. Despite your repeated assertions that I believe clothing causes rape I've not actually said that. I've said that there are lots of studies suggesting it's a complex dynamic and that it may be a contributing factor. You also keep mentioning victim blaming despite the fact that I've said at least three times that it's still not the individual woman's fault.

In fact, one of the main points that I keep making is that it's not about blame but just causality sometimes. It's not your fault if your neighbour's dangerous dog jumps over the fence and bites you, but it still may have been possible to avoid getting bitten by going back inside when you saw it charging across the garden towards your fence.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.