How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

No that isn't how you should look at things because it's completely wrong.

I'm still looking forward to your explanation of how Pakistan is so low down on the GEI when it's such a safe place for women.

Women and girls are so 'modestly' dressed and so well looked after yet sexual assault, domestic violence and rape is through the roof. What's the explanation?

Would you leave your purse on the car seat? 🤣

You really don't want to answer this do you?

It's because you know that sometimes, irrespective of whether we're right or wrong, we have to make sensible decisions based on realistic outcomes.

I'm not just talking about clothing here.

You said:

'If someone walks through a crowd of football supporters with the wrong T shirt, it's not inevitable that they're going to be attacked. Nor are they responsible for being attacked.'

'The court doesn't say, "Oh well, what did they expect. Innocent!" There's something called criminal responsibility and it begins at 10. A ten year old can be held responsible for their behaviour because they know right from wrong.'

What you fail to grasp is that by the time it gets to court the victim has already suffered serious injury which might affect his ability to work and all sorts of things. He would've been better to just use common sense and not walk past a notorious Man U pub after a game wearing a Liverpool shirt.

You seem to be suggesting that people should be idealistic and ignore clear threats to their safety because criminals 'shouldn't' do criminal things. Well I've got a shocking revelation for you. Criminals don't abide by the law.

This isn't just about clothing. There seems to be an odd feminist trend whereby it's frowned upon to suggest that women should take measures to protect themselves from men in situations where they're at potential risk. The same sentiment is evident in your comments about the football shirt - the victim 'isn't responsible' for the actions of their attacker. The perpetrator is the one with the 'criminal responsibility' and should be 'held responsible for their behaviour'.

So, this is all very well, but the same people that say this stuff somehow still don't want to go running at night, leave their house unlocked, or leave their purse on the car seat in full view (you clearly don't either as is apparent by your repeated refusal to answer the question!).

So which is it? Are we still saying it's victim blaming to suggest that people take practical measures to avoid being a victim of crime? After all, the criminal responsibility lies with the perpetrator. The victim isn't responsible, right?

So shouldn't we be running around at night, leaving our purses on our car seats, leaving our houses unlocked? After all it's victim blaming to suggest we do otherwise.

What's your thoughts on this? No whataboutery about clothing, please. Should we take reasonable measures to protect our own safety, even when we're not at fault, or should we just hope people don't break the law? Or should we pick and choose as seems to be the modus operandi?

Should we not worry about avoiding the attention of predatory men because their actions are criminal and we're innocent, but still lock our doors despite the fact we're still innocent in this scenario and a burglar is still committing a criminal act? 🤔

You're defo not going to give me a proper answer to that. 🤣

@CocoChaneI

You've been arguing for quite a long time about women being responsible for being attacked because of their clothes and I'd appreciate the evidence you have for that.

You were accusing me of not understanding reality, so please demonstrate the reality.

As throughout, your argument is confused. For the third time, I was talking about taking responsibility for your behaviour, recognising that you're committing a criminal offence and not victim blaming. The victim of your behaviour is not responsible for your behaviour.

I'm quite surprised that you know anything about feminism.

The focus should be on stopping crime against women and making society safer for women. Instead of policing women's clothes and behaviour, police and control the predators.

As evidenced from countries where women's behaviour is controlled to the ninth degree, it doesn't deter abusers. In fact, assault against women is through the roof.

We have three facts here:

a. Clothes don't determine who will be a victim

b. Controlling women's behaviour doesn't deter predators

c. Women aren't responsible for men's behaviour

Once upon a time, there were cars parked on a busy street, some old and locked, others were new and unlocked, with jewels heaped on their seats! Vandals smashed some of the cars, some old, some new, they stole nothing.

A nearby street also had a vandal problem, it was declared that all cars parking on that street should be old and securely locked! Vandals still smashed as many cars on that street as on the first street, but the drivers did not go to the police when this happened because the police never believed them.

In yet a 3rd street, all the cars were new, unlocked and with sparkly jewels left on the seats! Vandals smashed cars there too, but neither more nor less than in the first 2 streets. Again the vandals stole nothing.

A 4th street put in lots of street lights, made it clear that vandalism will be prosecuted, built effective legal systems to do so and tried to work out what is wrong with the vandals. That street understood that for the vandals, it was never about the jewels inside the car, but about the act of destruction of the car itself.

There, explored and fixed your car analogy for you.

So more diversion tactics. Why don't you just answer the question?

Should we just leave our houses unlocked and our purses on our car seats? It's not our job to police criminals so shouldn't we just leave our cars parked up with the keys in the ignition and let law enforcement deal with the perpetrators like you suggest?

Pornography, rape and clothes designed to objectify women for the male gaze – and the accompanying internalised misogyny – are all part of the same thing.

Equally, assault is certainly not in any way the fault of girls or women who are assualted, whatever they wear.

There, explored and fixed your car analogy for you.

No. You just wrote a load of bollocks. 😂

I sincerely hope no woman actually follows the advice you're giving to not make informed choices about her own safety and instead wait for the day when police eradicate all crime. I mean, it's not going to happen anytime soon really is it. You've already mentioned the pitifully low conviction rate for rapes.

It's not me who's using diversion tactics. You're not engaging because you can't. You don't have any evidence to back up your arguments so you're repeating the same tired clichés.

I've already explained many times that women are in danger from people they know.

You are flailing around trying to argue that women should mitigate risks. When you know full well that they are most at risk from people they know: friends, colleagues, family, spouses. Stranger attacks are rare.

But please enlighten me, how does a woman mitigate the risk of her boyfriend raping her? What should she wear? Should she abstain from alcohol? Avoid evenings out?

The OP is about whether how western women dress contributes to the incidence of rape. Your comparison about locking doors because of burglaries is simply not applicable. To make it comparable, burglaries would look like this: there are burglars inside your home living with you, there are burglars who are your neighbours who you sometimes invite for tea, there are burglars who are your relatives who sometimes stay to visit. There are some burglars you don't know but that group is much smaller in number. Well at that point quite frankly who cares if you lock your door or not, there are tons of burglars inside already and many with access to your home anyway.

At last somebody with common sense!

It's possible to be entirely innocent and still make decisions that you'd ideally not have to make in an ideal world.

I believe that choosing not to contribute to female objectification is a sensible decision, even whilst acknowledging that it shouldn't be necessary.

More whataboutery tbh.

Either we accept that sometimes it's sensible to take steps to ensure our own safety, even if we shouldn't have to, or we just remove all agency from women and hope that men don't abuse them because it's a crime and the woman is innocent.

I know what I'll be doing....

OK, so why don't you answer the question.

Would you leave your purse on your car seat?

But please enlighten me, how does a woman mitigate the risk of her boyfriend raping her? What should she wear? Should she abstain from alcohol? Avoid evenings out?

It seems you're desperately trying to backtrack and avoid answering the question having realised that you've arrived at something of a logical fallacy.

You were arguing that women shouldn't take sensible measures to mitigate risk because they're innocent and the man is the one committing a criminal offence. I'm saying this is terrible advice to give to women and potentially puts them at risk.

I work in construction, the single most dangerous sector, and I'm around hazards every day that have the potential to kill me. If I see a bit of scaffolding that looks like it could collapse I'm not going to just walk under it and say. "well, I'm not responsible for maintenance. I'm innocent here and the blame lies on them." Because that would be ridiculous.

Instead, I'll take any measures I deem fit to ensure my own safety in the here and now, even though I'm innocent and shouldn't be in that situation in the first place. I won't allow myself to get killed just because I should've been able to walk under the scaffold.

If you disagree with this then I'd ask what your thoughts about child safeguarding are. Should we not bother with it? After all it's not inevitable that anything will happen as you pointed out in the football example. The children are innocent and the paedophiles are the ones responsible for committing a crime.

But my point is that it doesn't really change my argument whether or not clothing influences a woman's likelihood of being assaulted, because you don't believe she should try and avoid these situations anyway - she's innocent and the perpetrator is the one in the wrong by committing a criminal offence.

The advice given around this topic is in stark contrast to pretty much anything else. Nobody takes risks just because said hazard shouldn't happen in an ideal world. It makes me wonder sometimes whether the goal is to actually reduce VAWG or whether it's more about having an excuse to moan about men!

You don't understand, the thesis of the OP is whether how Western women dress increases rape. It does not. End of.

Your obsession with what victims do is not relevant here to the OP's question and no one who has rebutted the OP's thesis has said women should 'walk under scaffolding all day long'. Women are always discussing ways they try to keep safe, self defence classes, pepper spray whatever. We do that because the system is misogynistic.

You are arguing the wrong point.

You don't understand, the thesis of the OP is whether how Western women dress increases rape. It does not. End of.

Several factors, including demographic characteristics, sexual and dating history, and personality traits, have been identified as potentially distinguishing victims from non-victims of sexual victimization. These factors can be grouped into broad categories such as demographics, lifestyle choices, and individual characteristics.

Provocative Dress:
Some research suggests a correlation between perceived "sexiness" or provocative attire and the risk of sexual assault.

Substance Use:
Greater alcohol consumption is associated with a higher risk of sexual victimization.

Early Sexual Debut:
Engaging in sexual activity at a younger age is also linked to an increased risk of victimization.

Living Situation:
Living alone or in a situation with limited support networks may increase vulnerability.

Mental Health:
Prior experiences of trauma, anxiety, or depression can increase vulnerability to sexual victimization.

Personality Traits:
Certain personality traits, such as risk-taking behavior or a tendency to be more outgoing, have been suggested to be associated with victimization.

Antecedents of sexual victimization: factors discriminating victims from nonvictims

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9519576/

@CocoChaneI

You seem to have created a strawman and run with it. Repeating yourself over and over again and becoming more and more worked up isn't an argument.

I didn't at any point say that people shouldn't make decisions to protect themselves.

I said that the victims of crime are not responsible for the crime. Do you see the difference or are you going to continue your strawman?

You're also attempting to derail because you can't prove your argument. Your argument was based on rape myths, stereotypes and misogyny and therefore there was no evidence behind it.

Your question regarding children is just another example of your misogyny. Women aren't children and don't need to be infantilised.

Again, you're focusing on the victim rather than the perpetrator. It's a kind of magical thinking; if I wear knee length skirts and sensible shoes, nothing bad will happen to me.

I'm just saying we should inform our beliefs on the basis of the available data rather than what we think should be the case.

We shouldn't be telling women that something won't affect their safety when it may well. It's up to individual women to make their own risk assessments and they shouldn't be making those choices bases on potentially inaccurate information pushed by people with ideological agendas.

They are also often in Care and living tumultuous lives, and the majority of LAC are white in England. Much harder to lure a 13 year old devout Muslim girl with alcohol and drugs than a white girl who sees them as offerings of love and belonging.

I just don't understand how this is at all relevant to the rape question. If I leave my purse on my car seat then opportunistic thieves can access it. Dressing more modestly does not make my vagina less accessible to rapists. How are the two scenarios linked?

I'm just saying we should inform our beliefs on the basis of the available data rather than what we think should be the case.

You have a habit of adopting other people's arguments as your own.

@Hadmysay and @CocoChaneI I agree with you both that it would be sensible for women to take measures to avoid being sexually assaulted - if those measures didn’t negativity impact their freedom and were proven to work.

But they don’t…

Whenever there is a famous case of a stranger rape, Sarah Everard, Sabrina Nessa etc. the perpetrator has been out hunting for a lone female victim. Nothing to do with their clothes, all to do with their route home.

Preventative measures in these cases would be to stop women walking alone in the dark. And (sadly) I wouldn’t advise my daughter to walk home alone at night because of this, but are you suggesting we make these preventative measures law?

How Handmaids Tale of you!

I never once claimed that pakistan is perfect for women or that they never go through these things.
Percentage wise they experience these things far less. Didn't you see the statistics I posted?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

Heck we can even look here in the uk. We have pakistani women over here that cover and they are far less victimized than the average british women so I actually don't think you have a good point at all. Or are you going to deny it?
Once again I'm not saying dress is the only reason for rape but in the UNITED KINGDOM it's a big part of the problem. Every country has different reasons and causes for these things.