How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

I am taking in statistics.
I am giving you statistics whilst you are working on guesswork.
We can only work with what we know right now. And what we know is statistically it happens less.
Yes rape is probably under reported in pakistan but it still happens less because of a system whilst it might be toxic and can go too far i,e oppression it can also be protective as well and that system is honour.
And is pakistan safer for women?
It depends.
There are reasons why it could be safer in certain instances for many women because there are things in place to protect. Not fully obviously but there are a lot of preventative measures.

Not mixing late at night/early hours of the morning with drunk perverted members of the opposite sex, having a more stable family structure where fathers are in the home so if a disrespectful man slips up he scared of getting a beating so he comes more respectful, male mahrams,not going on dating apps meeting up with strangers etc. Much less casual encounters with strangers etc.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen in pakistan.
In fact one of the links you've posted supports what I'm saying

You're willfully blind to the facts. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that Pakistan is safer for women, ever.

If Pakistan is so safe, can you explain why

Pakistan was ranked 145th out of 146 countries in the 2024 World Economic Forum’s Global Gender Gap Index, further down from 142nd rank in 2023. Only Iran, Algeria, Chad and Afghanistan are below Pakistan.

I'm very interested in your explanation.

You're right, we should be locking boys up as soon as they're born, as we obviously can't expect the poor wee souls to take responsibility for their own actions once they hit puberty. I mean wild animals can't control their urges, and men are no more than wild animals, are they?

Nudity is not necessarily sexual. In many cultures, it was seen as entirely natural, as it is in naturist groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_nudity

Clothing is for different purposes - protection from the weather, to indicate power or status, even for celebration.

Religious groups have ascribed nakedness as 'sinful' and fully clothed as 'virtuous' and have pushed this belief onto others.

I believe what the OP is doing is the same - they are trying to push their view of virtue onto others by insisting that fewer clothes is somehow sinful/worthy of punishment (rape/sexual assault) and that the only way to safety/purity is more clothing.

And I don’t agree with that either…

But tbh @MiloMinderbinder925 having read the thread in full now I’m not trying to argue in favour of OP’s misinformed and ultimately dangerous views.

Yes - how great it would be if women were told how dress, act and think to because those poor men can’t seeing an inch of thigh without feeling the need to rape. 🙄

OP your views belong in the dark ages and thankfully 99% of society doesn’t agree with them 🤷🏽‍♀️

Whether or not it affects rape stats, I'm still kinda leaning towards the view that dressing to titillate men probs doesn't help in terms of getting them to stop objectifying us/seeing us as walking fucktoys rather than people. But I still support any woman's right to wear what she wants.

Then stop dressing to titilate men. I assume this is projection as you've no idea why others dress as they do.

Young women mainly wear revealing clothing to look good for the opposite sex, in exactly the same way men work on their biceps in the gym and wear tight shirts to show them off. Pretending otherwise is just bonkers. Have you never been out on the pull when you were younger?

Again you're projecting. I've got no idea why people dress the way they do and I don't judge. I assume they think they look good.

What has this got to do with sexual assault?

Well, this is an interesting study.

They attempted to gauge people's levels of empathy towards 'objectified' vs non-objectified women - objectified being scantily clad in this case.

Any context that encourages us to focus on a person's body, more than their mind, is said to lead to objectification, such as when, in a previous era, a Formula One fan looked upon an attractive "grid girl" dressed in revealing clothes.

Perhaps the most serious concern about objectification is that it can lead us to disregard the rights and experiences of the objectified person. For instance, past research has shown that we're more inclined to blame a rape victim depicted in a bikini, and more willing to (hypothetically) administer painful tablets to men and women shown wearing swim wear, rather than fully clothed.

Now a study in Cortex has taken things further by showing that volunteers' empathy-related brain activity was diminished when they saw an objectified woman suffering social rejection, as compared with a woman who wasn't objectified.

The researchers' ultimate aim is to better understand "gender-based violence" which they say "disproportionately affects women", and "constitutes an extensive human rights abuse that the modern society cannot afford to overlook". They believe their demonstration of reduced neural empathy toward an objectified woman experiencing social rejection "may indicate a possible mechanism behind the motivation of gender-based violent behaviour". They added that the fact that their female participants also showed reduced neural empathy toward objectified women is consistent with gender violence entailing "not only active participation, but also passive acceptance or compliance and therefore involving both men and women behaviours".

https://www.bps.org.uk/research-digest/reduced-neural-empathy-women-wearing-revealing-clothes

Until i see an equal number of twelve year old boys in skintight shorts and crop tops, or school shorts no longer than their blazers, I will do my best to moderate my girls' clothing. This stuff should not be for sale - lets's find out which perverts are designing them and authorising them to be stocked in shops?

It's actually pretty well known. We live in a misogynist society that negatively judges women and women can be just as guilty, as evidenced on this thread.

They no longer do it but during rape trials a woman would be asked to describe everything she was wearing including her underwear.

Women are constantly 'slut shamed' and dehumanised. VAWAG is at crisis levels. We have one of the lowest rape conviction rates in Europe. That's partly because of rape myths.

It's hardly surprising therefore, that both men and women think less of 'Eve', the eternal temptress. It's in our psyche.

Well, I'm not disagreeing but for all the talk of slut shaming and internalised misogyny I'd wager that the average middle class woman (or dare I say average mumsnetter) would still regard a woman with clothing bordering on indecent with a little more disdain than one that most people would regard as 'tastefully' dressed. Even more so if it's a middle aged women in a mini skirt and boob tube with all her bits hanging out.

Most people won't admit it but they definitely think it. Same as the attitude towards 'chavvy' people, although it's a bit taboo to actually say it nowadays.

The rape conviction rate is something I'm admittedly not particularly well read on. I don't know what the most common offending patterns/circumstances are but certainly a lot of the high profile ones seem to involve excessive drinking - like all the football/rugby players taking girls to their hotel rooms and that one where a girl was raped on holiday while partying with that group of young men.

We certainly have a much bigger binge drinking culture than a lot of European countries so I wonder if that affects it. As in, it's probably a lot harder to get accurate witness statements when everybody was absolutely plastered. And obviously it's a lot easier for predatory men to pick on inebriated women or slip something in their drink without them noticing.

I've defo seen a few cases over the years where people have intervened when a bloke has been trying to get a legless woman into a taxi. I also remember being at a party where this guy kept trying to get into bed with a girl that had passed out. The blokes kicked him out the second time as it was pretty obvious he wasn't just looking to rest like he'd tried to claim - he'd been told the first time there was another free bed.

@CocoChaneI

I'd wager that the average middle class woman (or dare I say average mumsnetter) would still regard a woman with clothing bordering on indecent with a little more disdain

Why? I think that says more about them than the person they're judging or calling a chav. Many MN have daughters, I'm sure they don't want people to judge their daughters with disdain.

don't know what the most common offending patterns/circumstances are

I don't know how many times it's been said on this thread; it's usually someone you know. Stranger rape is rare.

The girl on holiday, if we're talking about the same case, was having consensual sex when the man's friends walked in and raped her. They went to the hotel hallway and asked random men if they wanted to rape her as well.

I'd like to hear your opinion on this. The most prolific rapist yet caught, was a man who preyed on drunk men. He lured them into his flat, spiked them and raped them.

Do you think it's their fault for getting drunk and being vulnerable?

Why? I think that says more about them than the person they're judging or calling a chav. Many MN have daughters, I'm sure they don't want people to judge their daughters with disdain.

Well, I'm sure those same mumsnetters wouldn't all be particularly happy with their daughters going out dressed like a stripper.

I work in the construction sector around a lot of gruff blokes so I'm pretty laissez faire compared to a lot of my friends that have corporate jobs. In fact, I hated office politics and the dynamic of everybody trying to get one up/climb the ladder whilst pretending to be 'a team player' etc. But generally people still seem to hold a lot of prejudice, women more than men in many cases it seems judging by what we read on here. We're just a lot better nowadays at knowing what not to say.

I'd like to hear your opinion on this. The most prolific rapist yet caught, was a man who preyed on drunk men. He lured them into his flat, spiked them and raped them.

Do you think it's their fault for getting drunk and being vulnerable?

Yes, I'm aware of the Reynard Sinega case.

It's not really a matter of being 'at fault' for me. I don't know why everybody always seems desperate to blame somebody. The only person really warranting any blame is the rapist.

However, I think there is still a dynamic of cause and effect at play in many cases. If a rapist is looking for drunk victims then you're less at risk if you're not blind drunk. It's not that you're right or wrong by choosing to drink excessively. You're just more vulnerable. Personally, I'd rather not be a statistic and that's completely separate from any aspect of morality.

But I should also be able to leave my life savings in a bag on my doorstep as nobody has the right to steal them. Obviously, I'm not going to do that!

99% of society doesn’t agree with them 🤷🏽‍♀️

A lot of people do agree but are too afraid to admitt it due to fear of being othered or cancelled

Same back to you.
And I wouldn't mind having more stringent laws on indecent exposure if it's stops the objectification of women and promotion of paedophilia to young girls.

It doesn't seem to be working in countries that have such laws and child marriage is still common. Although I realise you're probably a Muslim and that's why you keep insisting there's less rape in Pakistan than here

You do realise rape is not a new phenomenon right? We’re talking centuries here and it has always happened, universally, all across the world regardless of laws or fashion.

You’re putting responsibility on women to stop men raping. You’re part of the problem.

It doesn't matter what women wear, they're objectified. The only vocations where women are paid substantially more than men, is modelling and sex work.

You want to control what women wear because you have medieval views of 'purity'. It's got nothing to do with sexual assault because as has been explained repeatedly, women are assaulted no matter what they wear.

You're the one who's been talking about children dressing provocatively, before you lecture on paedophilia.

If you were serious about protecting women, you wouldn't be revictimising them and making it more difficult to report crime.

@CocoChaneI

Well, I'm sure those same mumsnetters wouldn't all be particularly happy with their daughters going out dressed like a stripper.

They wouldn't have much choice given that their daughter's are adults. The thing is, they know their children and are less likely to dehumanise them and reduce them to crude stereotypes.

But generally people still seem to hold a lot of prejudice, women more than men in many cases

That's not true. I rarely hear women making crude, sexual comments about other women. Men do quite frequently though, many have a virgin/whore complex and the ability to compartmentalise. We've already agreed that misogyny is thriving and well.

It's not really a matter of being 'at fault' for me. I don't know why everybody always seems desperate to blame somebody.

Thought as much. Suddenly it's wrong to victim blame and judge when it's men. You haven't mentioned what they were wearing either as I'm sure the rapist was picky.

Personally, I'd rather not be a statistic and that's completely separate from any aspect of morality.

That's down to luck. Don't marry an abuser, stay away from abusers and don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

But I should also be able to leave my life savings in a bag on my doorstep as nobody has the right to steal them

Yes, because human beings are just like bags of cash.