How girls and women dress in western countries *MNHQ adding content warning for SA as requested*

[Hadmysay]

It's an interesting conversation

www.tiktok.com/@danielle90sbaby/video/7501747121238936854

www.tiktok.com/@meetthealis/video/7503903907920317718. Is this unfeminist to feel like this or do they have a point?

It doesn't matter what women wear, they're objectified.

Well, the data I posted from the British Psychological Society states that studies have demonstrated that both sexes have less empathy for those that dress scantily/are objectified and feel less inhibition about harming them. They specifically discuss this in the context of the implications on gender based violence.

So it seems the experts don't agree with you. They're saying that what women wear does potentially have an impact on their safety.

So now the question is arguably whether you prioritise personal safety or whether you're willing to forego it and put yourself at the mercy of dodgy men to make a feminist point. That's a philosophical feminist conundrum in it's own right. Do we put gender theory ahead of women's real world safety?

That's down to luck. Don't marry an abuser, stay away from abusers and don't be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Wow. Might be worth you reading up about things like 'love bombing' and the various ways abusive men slowly tighten the snare. Saying it's just luck is taking away women's agency and tbh is a bit naive.

And how do we avoid being in 'the wrong place at the wrong time'. A curfew?

My issue with that study is that it wasn’t just normal clothes vs objectifying clothes. It was normal , appropriate clothes vs objectifying, inappropriate clothes for a ball game. I wonder what the results would’ve been if instead of tracksuit bottoms ,tshirt and trainers the unobjectified participant wore heels and a two piece tailored suit , or the objectified participant wore skimpy gym clothes/volleyball uniform etc.

Because if you show me a woman in heels and a short , tight dress playing with a ball I’m very likely to think twat. Not because of the amount of skin, but because the outfit doesn’t fit the occasion.

@CocoChaneI

Well, the data I posted from the British Psychological Society states that studies have demonstrated that both sexes have less empathy for those that dress scantily/are objectified and feel less inhibition about harming them.

That's not true is it or men in Speedos would be frequently attacked.

The crux of the matter is misogyny. Women who wear revealing clothes are negatively judged by society because of the Madonna/whore dichotomy.

There's the myth of the 'perfect victim', where you're supposed to act and look a certain way or you're treated with suspicion. You'll get sympathy if you're a 'good girl' as opposed to someone who defies social norms.

In some countries, you've only been raped if you have signs you've sufficiently fought off the attacker because you're supposed to act a certain way.

It completely ignores the body's natural response to fear which is to freeze as it's more likely to save your life.

So it seems the experts don't agree with you. They're saying that what women wear does potentially have an impact on their safety.

They do agree with me as we acknowledge misogyny and objectification. And no, what a woman wears doesn't impact on her safety or men would only attack women wearing certain clothes which obviously isn't true.

For a start, they're more likely to attack other men and VAWAG happens irrespective of what the victim wears. A domestic abuser or sexual predator isn't triggered by a bit of cleavage and unable to control themselves. There's absolutely no data to support that because it's nonsensical.

On average two women a week are murdered by a partner or former partner and it's not because of what she's wearing.

Do we put gender theory ahead of women's real world safety?

How about we stop wasting time debating women and their clothes and focus on the perpetrators? How about we tackle male violence and misogyny?

It is luck AND exposure to men. The more contact you have with them, the more likely it is for something bad to happen. Nothing to do with what we’re wearing. So unless we make our lives VERY small, then yes it comes down to luck.

It's not me who's naive. I don't believe that wearing a polo neck will stop someone determined to attack you.

It's also not me who knows diddly about domestic abuse or you wouldn't be arguing that the most important factor is clothes.

And how do we avoid being in 'the wrong place at the wrong time'.

That's my point.

Laws against victims will not stop rape. Otherwise we could have a law for example that says "it is illegal to be murdered".

You seem ever so fixated on looking at young women yourself. Where I live, girls and young women these days wear very baggy oversized clothes. But many men, in their late 20s to 30s I would say, wear tight gym clothes, like those compression tee shirts with tight sleeves. That's what I see anyway, as a hetero woman.

If a peek of my ankle or the sight of my knee whips males into a frenzy and they can't control themselves, lock them all up! But do you know men are also capable of moral behaviour? Very capable indeed. You can't make someone a rapist by more or less clothing. The mindset that has less sympathy depending on how someone looks is deeply wrong, those studies you cite identify the very moral bankruptcy you yourself possess and which commentators on this thread are trying to show you. But none so blind etc as the wilful misogynist

We've already agreed that misogyny is thriving and well.

Did we? Don't remember that whether or not the statement itself is true.

Thought as much. Suddenly it's wrong to victim blame and judge when it's men.

Seems you 'accidentally' cut off my last sentence. In fact, you must've just misread my post entirely because your reply seems contradictory - saying I'm reticent to blame men when I literally stated it's the rapists to blame in the very next sentence following the excerpt you posted.

"It's not really a matter of being 'at fault' for me. I don't know why everybody always seems desperate to blame somebody. The only person really warranting any blame is the rapist."

Perhaps we could have a discussion without these disingenuous attempts to twist the narrative/put words in other posters' mouths? It's not like everybody can't see the original posts is it?

@CocoChaneI

Did we? Don't remember that whether or not the statement itself is true.

Of course, you posted a study which was based on misogynist views of women.

Seems you 'accidentally' cut off my last sentence. In fact, you must've just misread my post entirely because your reply seems contradictory - saying I'm reticent to blame men when I literally stated it's the rapists to blame in the very next sentence following the excerpt you posted.

It seems you missed my point. You've been wasting time trying to blame women, their clothes and behaviour for being attacked. Yet suddenly it's perfectly evident that rapists are to blame for their behaviour when discussing male abuse.

Perhaps we could have a discussion without these disingenuous attempts to twist the narrative/put words in other posters' mouths? It's not like everybody can't see the original posts is it?

Sure. I'm perfectly happy to watch you twist trying to argue that sexual predators are to blame whilst arguing that women are as well.

And no, what a woman wears doesn't impact on her safety or men would only attack women wearing certain clothes which obviously isn't true.

This is an illogical conclusion. It doesn't have to be 'only'. What if instead it's 'more likely to'? Certainly we know that men see women in titillating clothes as being 'up for it', and plenty of women do wear these clothes for that specific reason. I liked to show off my figure when I was single and going to places where I might meet a hot guy, even if I didn't go too OTT with the flesh on display. You're defo inviting an interaction with men if you go to a club/bar wearing extremely sexualised clothing.

We can pretend that clothing choices operate in a vacuum but they don't. Certain things communicate certain things. Like, I should be able to identify as a proud brit and vote for who I want but to walk through Alum Rock wearing a t shirt with a big union jack or a Reform logo would be sending a very clear message.

The crux of the matter is misogyny. Women who wear revealing clothes are negatively judged by society because of the Madonna/whore dichotomy.

I'd say it's more that nobody wants to see a middle aged woman or an obese women with her norks hanging out! 😂 If you look like Scarlett Johanssen then you'll generally walk on water. Yes, it's pretty grim but that's society for you. A lot of these pseudo-intellectual fringe
theories just aren't representative of reality.

So when you see a woman dressed as below? Her clothing choices are entirely uninfluenced by male attention?

The attached image was a woman wearing a tight top with the logo 'Hello boys' on it. It seems that I'm not allowed to post it.

@CocoChaneI

This is an illogical conclusion. It doesn't have to be 'only'. What if instead it's 'more likely to'?

Do you have any evidence to support that? Can you prove that women who are attacked are attacked solely because of their apparel? Can you explain why rape is so high in countries where women dress 'modestly'?

saying I'm reticent to blame men when I literally stated it's the rapists to blame

Which is it? Are rapists to blame or clothes? You seem to be arguing for both.

Certainly we know that men see women in titillating clothes as being 'up for it', and plenty of women do wear these clothes for that specific reason.

You appear to have the mindset of a sexual predator. Again you're making sweeping assumptions about people's reasons for their clothing choices.

You're defo inviting an interaction with men if you go to a club/bar wearing extremely sexualised clothing.

You're not doing anything for definite by wearing certain clothes and you're certainly not definitely looking for sexual interaction. That's a predator's mindset.

We can pretend that clothing choices operate in a vacuum but they don't. Certain things communicate certain things. Like, I should be able to identify as a proud brit and vote for who I want but to walk through Alum Rock wearing a t shirt with a big union jack or a Reform logo would be sending a very clear message.

You're evidently confused. A predator thinks clothing are an indication of anything. If I saw a man walking down the road wearing tight trousers and no top, I wouldn't assume he wants me to start sexually harassing him.

You're talking about an 'invitation' to sexually assault people. Someone in a Reform T shirt isn't sending out signals that they want to be assaulted. They are sending out a message of who they support politically. I'm surprised that needs to be explained.

I'd say it's more that nobody wants to see a middle aged woman or an obese women with her norks hanging out

More misogynist twaddle that has nothing to do with your confused argument.

A lot of these pseudo-intellectual fringe
theories just aren't representative of reality.

Your 'reality' seems to be that people who wear certain clothes want to be raped.

It's just more evidence that you're judgemental and make assumptions.

It seems you missed my point.

No, you were accusing me of suddenly not wanting to place the blame when it came to men, but rather conveniently you cut off the sentence where I said "nobody is ultimately at blame but the rapists". It wasn't even a logical place to snip the quote as it would've been a full paragraph had you left in the final sentence.

You've been wasting time trying to blame women, their clothes and behaviour for being attacked.

Nope. I specifically said it's not about blame and more about cause and effect. You're naive to leave your fate in the hands of others and trust that they'll act as they should. If predators are targeting drunk victims as you said yourself then being drunk makes you more vulnerable, irrespective of your right to be drunk.

But by dressing to attract men you increase your exposure to them. And let's be honest, nobody is baring their boobs for the benefit of other women.

@CocoChaneI

No, you missed my point.

You're naive to leave your fate in the hands of others and trust that they'll act as they should

Unfortunately women have to take that leap of faith because they're in relationships with men and have to associate with them.

Perhaps the onus should be on men to obey the law and keep their hands to themselves.

specifically said it's not about blame and more about cause and effect.

You're not making any sense. You're specifically arguing that women are responsible for the behaviour of men. You are blaming women.

If predators are targeting drunk victims as you said yourself then being drunk makes you more vulnerable, irrespective of your right to be drunk

Predators will target anyone irrespective of them being drunk or not. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is the principle cause of stranger rape.

Can you explain why rape is so high in countries where women dress 'modestly'?

Well, generally that's the only way women dress in those countries so there's no comparison to be made as there aren't any women walking around in miniskirts. And the problem runs much deeper than clothing. The issue is religion and an even more patriarchal society.

But when men from said countries come here they view western women with even more disdain. What did one of the Rotherham groomers say: "white women are good for one thing, for men like me to fuck and use as trash".

You're not doing anything for definite by wearing certain clothes and you're certainly not definitely looking for sexual interaction.

Well, I'm afraid you're wrong because I absolutely was looking for 'sexual interaction'. 😂

Your 'reality' seems to be that people who wear certain clothes want to be raped.

Yup, that's exactly what I meant. Some women just luuurve to be raped, right? 🙄

Predators will target anyone irrespective of them being drunk or not.

So why did you give specific examples of predators targeting drunk people?

C'mon it's clear that you just have a problem with men. Most of us don't. We realise that while most rapists are men, most men aren't rapists. I'm far more likely to get run over by a digger onsite than murdered by my partner.

@CocoChaneI

Well, generally that's the only way women dress in those countries so there's no comparison to be made as there aren't any women walking around in miniskirts. And the problem runs much deeper than clothing. The issue is religion and an even more patriarchal society.

The issue is misogyny and male entitlement.

And the problem runs much deeper than clothing.

Finally. Took a while.

But when men from said countries come here they view western women with even more disdain. What did one of the Rotherham groomers say: "white women are good for one thing, for men like me to fuck and use as trash

Their attitudes are no different to Western abusers and predators. Just remove the 'white' and you have any violator of women.

Well, I'm afraid you're wrong because I absolutely was looking for 'sexual interaction'.

I did say it was projection. You dressed and behaved in a certain way so you naturally assume everyone else is doing the same.

Yup, that's exactly what I meant. Some women just luuurve to be raped, right?

You're the one saying that women are 'up for it' if they dress in a certain way.

1. Rape is not about attraction.
2. Being around men is what increases exposure to men. That’s it. Otherwise nuns, elderly women, women in a coma, children etc. wouldn’t be raped. The clothes myth also feeds into the “she’s too ugly /fat to be raped” myth that not only leaves victims disbelieved (common) but they’re also somehow expected to be grateful for the “attention “.
3. I recently attended a private work event. Only 4 men there (two working at the venue) and shitloads of women. Plenty of boobs and legs out, heels, makeup etc. Whose attention were they trying to attract? If anything had happened on the way to the event or on the way home, would that have been because they were looking for male attention?

@CocoChaneII’ll also refer you to one of my earlier posts.

have a couple of sexual assaults under my belt, some more serious than other. All of them from men/boys I knew. None of them in a short skirt.
Age 11, my cousin. No idea what I was wearing because I don’t remember much. Mostly short flashbacks and smells.
Age 13, my classmates on a residential. Shorts and a tshirt. Same thing they were wearing.
Age 14 , my grandfather. Trakkie bottoms and a Tshirt.
Age 17 , my maths tutor. Jeans and a baggy jumper.
That’s just the highlights.
All of them minimised, and I was either laughed at or blamed for, so yes society is also the problem, but please tell me more about how my clothing was the real issue and not men.

@CocoChaneI

So why did you give specific examples of predators targeting drunk people?

I gave an example of a sexual predator targeting drunk men and asked if you thought they were responsible for being victimised. You very clearly said it was the responsibility of the rapist.

C'mon it's clear that you just have a problem with men. Most of us don't. We realise that while most rapists are men, most men aren't rapists.

Weird because you clearly have a problem with women. All rapists are men. I have a problem with misogyny.

I'm far more likely to get run over by a digger onsite than murdered by my partner.

I should hope so. However 1/4 of women will be abused and 1/3 sexually abused, so you're one of the lucky ones.

I did say it was projection. You dressed and behaved in a certain way so you naturally assume everyone else is doing the same.

Let's not pretend that women haven't dressed up to go on the pull since the dawn of time. Whether attending a ball in a nice dress or wearing hotpants to a club. Denying it is ridiculous. We don't sit on the sofa in heels and a low cut dress and we don't wear tracky bottoms to a club.

Both sexes dress up to go on the pull. However, only one sex gets blamed for being targeted by sexual predators. You appear to be their spokesperson, which is nice.