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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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17
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 21:16

Yeah, where is the middle ground between TWAW and TWANW?

TWCBW in all situations where it doesn't really matter, but not in situations where it does matter, I guess. Which is basically the gist of the Supreme Court judgment.

Witchymadwoman · 24/04/2025 21:17

“There just weren't enough eiderdowns to save them from the pesky pea (women defending their sex based rights)”

Utterly brilliant!

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 21:18

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:15

One of them is the establishment and the other is… a rich woman?

They’re quite different.

They’re not being bankrolled by the taxpayer, they’re spending taxes. In an argument that some would prefer they weren’t having, sure, but as soon as I pay tax it ceases being my money.

There’s no choice in how it’s spent, or there’d be loads of things I would refuse it for.

I am also genuinely asking. If the issue is a most women issue, how were the funds not already there?

Are you genuinely not aware that women have spent the last 10+ years being told it's transphobic for them to even privately think that TWANW? That they are allowed to have an opinion on this?

Glad you're admitting that the trans rights lobby had the establishment on their side, at least.

WearyAuldWumman · 24/04/2025 21:18

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:56

Yes just pick one person to make allllll your points about trans people. I keep seeing people say oh I'm not transphobic but you've got SC ruling and instead of just letting trans people get on with their lives in peace and being who they want to be there's all this blatant animosity. Why? There aren't marauding hordes of trans women waiting to accost you in the ladies, they've been using them for years with no problems. It's been set out where single sex spaces must be so that's that sorted. Why the need to be vile to people? I really don't get it.

The difference is that we now have predatory men using the fact that the barriers have been lowered in order to access victims.

The Katie Dolatowski debacle - which happened in my area - gave the green light to chancers like Isla Bryson and Tiffany Scott.

Witchymadwoman · 24/04/2025 21:20

Lolapusht · 24/04/2025 20:21

From the few posts you have written OP (and I’ve had the patience to read), you come across as arrogant and very entitled.

You came here to have a “non-toxic debate” and when someone says “I don’t think of you as a woman and never will” or “…you can believe in GI if you want to, not everyone does” you’ve basically implied they’re toxic and arguing in bad faith. You shut down people’s views and quote misogynistic, claptrap as scientific fact. You’re stomping all over this thread patronisingly telling people why they’re wrong.

You stated that you feel you are very self-aware. Great. Now use that awareness to fix your problems. It’s not up to us to make you feel good about yourself. We can’t. Only you can fix yourself. You are not a straight woman. You are a gay man (probably). Whatever experiences you’ve undergone that make you unwilling to accept that, I know not. I do know that you can have as much surgery, take as many hormones and wear whatever you want but you will never be a woman. It’s ok to be a gender non-conforming man. It’s ok not to be a masculine man or to be a man who likes wearing women’s clothes.

If society accepts you as a woman then all men who say they are women will get access to SSS and that is not acceptable. Do you realise that if the law stated sex = gender then TIFs would be ineligible to maternity benefit should they decide to have a child (as many of them do, in spite of their crippling dysphoria and the unknown effect of T on foetuses).

I started reading your thread hoping for sensible engagement but found self-indulgent lecturing and I’m done with it. It isn’t always about you. You are not the only one that matters here. I genuinely wish you no harm or ill will, but you clearly have many unresolved issues that you are masking by catastrophising around the SC judgement. What are you frightened of? You haven’t lost any rights so you’re no worse off than you were before the judgement. If you want to participate in sport events, compete with the other men who have benefitted from a male puberty. Don’t commit a crime and you won’t have to go to a men’s prison. Stop obsessing about all the things that might happen and just lead your life without imposing it on others.

Female brain <pfft🙄>

Another man who can’t hear “no” from women

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:23

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 21:16

Yeah, where is the middle ground between TWAW and TWANW?

TWCBW in all situations where it doesn't really matter, but not in situations where it does matter, I guess. Which is basically the gist of the Supreme Court judgment.

FWIW I don’t believe TWAW.

I have made clear that I understand sex based biology and that it is clearly and quite obviously different. I didn’t need a court judgement to tell me that being born female is different to not being.

I don’t believe you can become a woman. You’re born one, or you’re not. Sex is fixed.

I do however recognise gender identity as ‘enough’ to be in those spaces. If someone, born male, identifies as female and wants to therefore be in that space, I had genuinely no issue with that and don’t auto-equate it to male violence.

Someone self IDing as female doesn’t offend me, but I don’t believe they’ve changed sex. That’s a physical impossibility.

I refer to trans women as trans women, not women. I refer to them as she, because that’s their gender ID. The same way I oblige with they/them for non-binary.

But I actually don’t believe that anyone can join the sex class of female, I believe they can have the same gender ID.

Wheech · 24/04/2025 21:24

I deliberately haven't read all the thread because I'm sure it's full of anger and I wish you well. Honestly if you need a pee and want to queue for the ladies toilet be my guest. Your comment about not being a straight forward female is an interesting one and probably the part of the trans debate that has resonated with me - what is a straight forward female? One who makes elaborate plans to ensure they don't have to walk a certain route home at night, one who like to pay a bit more for a low quality pastel colour version of a men's item, one who puts the wants of others before their own needs, one who ensures they look good even if it's not comfortable because they understand that's expected of them? What about a straight forward man? Is that one who can't cry at a funeral, or laughs at a friend in need rather than being openly kind, chooses a job as a bin man even though they would rather be a nursery assistant but they know they would be regarded with suspicion, one who won't go to the GP when they are terrified something serious is wrong?

I wish everyone who doesn't identify with gender stereotypes could get together to challenge them properly, and refuse to accept them. We would ALL benefit to some tune. Then there could be no need for gender, and sex would only matter when determining things like whether you need a smear test or a prostate exam, or where physical differences mean segregation makes sense (sport, toilets, prisons where a rapist with a penis is a rapist is a rapist even if they claim to be just another ordinary woman). We'd all be so much more free.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 21:24

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:23

FWIW I don’t believe TWAW.

I have made clear that I understand sex based biology and that it is clearly and quite obviously different. I didn’t need a court judgement to tell me that being born female is different to not being.

I don’t believe you can become a woman. You’re born one, or you’re not. Sex is fixed.

I do however recognise gender identity as ‘enough’ to be in those spaces. If someone, born male, identifies as female and wants to therefore be in that space, I had genuinely no issue with that and don’t auto-equate it to male violence.

Someone self IDing as female doesn’t offend me, but I don’t believe they’ve changed sex. That’s a physical impossibility.

I refer to trans women as trans women, not women. I refer to them as she, because that’s their gender ID. The same way I oblige with they/them for non-binary.

But I actually don’t believe that anyone can join the sex class of female, I believe they can have the same gender ID.

OK, so I have two questions.

  1. Do you think you can consent to trans women being in those spaces on behalf of other women? Or is one woman's "no" enough to make it a "no" from the entire group?
  2. Do you believe that you have a gender identity and that you share the same gender identity as trans women?
SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:25

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 21:18

Are you genuinely not aware that women have spent the last 10+ years being told it's transphobic for them to even privately think that TWANW? That they are allowed to have an opinion on this?

Glad you're admitting that the trans rights lobby had the establishment on their side, at least.

Edited

Genuinely yes that’s what I’m saying.

Because like at least some other women, it’s not a debate I was having, was involved in or had an interest in the outcome of, pretty much until it all “kicked off” if you will over the last few years.

My introduction to it was when it as already heated, by which point I already knew I wasn’t in the group of people who were having that fight. It just became increasingly more difficult to avoid.

BundleBoogie · 24/04/2025 21:26

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 19:17

I know why I feel less kinship with a certain cohort of women, but that’s not what we’re discussing.

I can understand that some women are insulted (or abused, if we must) by being referred to as cisgender. I can also understand that some trans women are insulted by being referred to as he.

Balance. Both are entitled to feel however they feel, but then that means that both shouldn’t be insulting the other.

I can understand that some women are insulted (or abused, if we must) by being referred to as cisgender. I can also understand that some trans women are insulted by being referred to as he.

These two things are not equivalent. ‘Cisgender’ is made up nonsense and calling somebody male ‘he’ is based in fact and reality.

Why are you so keen to argue against the interests of women? And yes, you have made an argument to that effect.

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 21:26

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:23

FWIW I don’t believe TWAW.

I have made clear that I understand sex based biology and that it is clearly and quite obviously different. I didn’t need a court judgement to tell me that being born female is different to not being.

I don’t believe you can become a woman. You’re born one, or you’re not. Sex is fixed.

I do however recognise gender identity as ‘enough’ to be in those spaces. If someone, born male, identifies as female and wants to therefore be in that space, I had genuinely no issue with that and don’t auto-equate it to male violence.

Someone self IDing as female doesn’t offend me, but I don’t believe they’ve changed sex. That’s a physical impossibility.

I refer to trans women as trans women, not women. I refer to them as she, because that’s their gender ID. The same way I oblige with they/them for non-binary.

But I actually don’t believe that anyone can join the sex class of female, I believe they can have the same gender ID.

Awesome, so TW, by dint of not being female, can stay out of female spaces then. I’m with you on this.

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:29

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 21:24

OK, so I have two questions.

  1. Do you think you can consent to trans women being in those spaces on behalf of other women? Or is one woman's "no" enough to make it a "no" from the entire group?
  2. Do you believe that you have a gender identity and that you share the same gender identity as trans women?
Edited

The is the law, I’m not going to drag trans women into your spaces because I personally wouldn’t have said they shouldn’t be there to begin with.

I wouldn’t collect them off the street and force them into a female bathroom, for example. I just didn’t care they were there all along.

Yes. My sex and gender identity match, some people’s don’t. That’s good enough for me.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 24/04/2025 21:29

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 05:06

Well actually if you read through my intial message.
I said that my brain has developed likely from birth as female with the sex differences in the brain being female or female resembled.
I didnt say that I became female but yes I have changed aspects of my sex devevlopment at this point which brings me much closer to female physically.

Well that's clearly what you think, but it doesn't make it true.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 21:31

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:29

The is the law, I’m not going to drag trans women into your spaces because I personally wouldn’t have said they shouldn’t be there to begin with.

I wouldn’t collect them off the street and force them into a female bathroom, for example. I just didn’t care they were there all along.

Yes. My sex and gender identity match, some people’s don’t. That’s good enough for me.

Can you explain what a gender identity is?

It's not a trick question.

I just can't for the life of me get my head round it.

What's the difference between a man gender identity and a woman gender identity?

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 21:32

@SleeplessInWherever so what is the female gender identity? Is it conforming to sexist, outdated stereotypes such as having to be kind, speak nicely and put men first or something else? How do you know your gender identity is female? I’m just checking so I can make sure I’m wommaning correctly.

Tygertiger · 24/04/2025 21:33

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:23

FWIW I don’t believe TWAW.

I have made clear that I understand sex based biology and that it is clearly and quite obviously different. I didn’t need a court judgement to tell me that being born female is different to not being.

I don’t believe you can become a woman. You’re born one, or you’re not. Sex is fixed.

I do however recognise gender identity as ‘enough’ to be in those spaces. If someone, born male, identifies as female and wants to therefore be in that space, I had genuinely no issue with that and don’t auto-equate it to male violence.

Someone self IDing as female doesn’t offend me, but I don’t believe they’ve changed sex. That’s a physical impossibility.

I refer to trans women as trans women, not women. I refer to them as she, because that’s their gender ID. The same way I oblige with they/them for non-binary.

But I actually don’t believe that anyone can join the sex class of female, I believe they can have the same gender ID.

So…I’m interested in why you think single sex spaces exist? It’s not just so that ladies can have a pink bathroom and gentlemen can have a blue one, is it?

They exist for three reasons: safety, privacy and dignity.

Safety is to protect women, because as a sex class, men are a threat to us in a way that women are not to men. Preventing men from entering spaces where women are particularly vulnerable, such as prisons, changing rooms and hospital wards, is not going to eliminate risk but it hugely reduces it. This is not “anti-trans”, it’s how safeguarding works. The vast majority of men are no risk to women, but we keep them all out because that makes it harder for the ones who are to hurt us.

Letting men who identify as women in opens us up to risk. How do you distinguish between those who are no risk from those who are, just by looking? You can’t, can you? Even if they’ve dressed in a feminine way, even if they’ve had surgery, they can still pose a threat.

Privacy and dignity apply to both sexes. My best friend is a gay man. We holiday together, I’ve shared a hotel room with him many times with the full knowledge and consent of both our husbands. But we wear full PJs, and I’ve never seen him naked, not he me, even though there’s no sexual attraction there. Because it still wouldn’t feel right to either of us. Also, consider cultural implications. Many religious people are prohibited from being naked around the opposite sex unless they are their spouse. Open up changing rooms to gender ID rather than sex, and you’ve then got a situation where Muslim women and Orthodox Jewish women can’t do sport.

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:34

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 21:32

@SleeplessInWherever so what is the female gender identity? Is it conforming to sexist, outdated stereotypes such as having to be kind, speak nicely and put men first or something else? How do you know your gender identity is female? I’m just checking so I can make sure I’m wommaning correctly.

Being nice to people as default, isn’t a female specific behaviour. It’s the minimum we should expect from all people, men included.

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 21:36

Oh got it. So it’s not being kind. So what is it? How does someone know they have a female gender identity? I mean, I know my sex is female, cos biology, but I have no clue what my gender identity is. You seem clued up on this stuff and you did say you wanted to support everyone, so I’ll wait for your help.

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:49

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 21:31

Can you explain what a gender identity is?

It's not a trick question.

I just can't for the life of me get my head round it.

What's the difference between a man gender identity and a woman gender identity?

For me, gender identity is your internal sense of self. It’s more than whether you have a certain set of parts, or a certain chromosome, it’s who you are.

It’s informed by your socialisation, your culture, your experiences, the world around you.

Gender based violence is called that because it relies on the difference in gender, in socialisation and how it informs behaviour. Men don’t abuse women because of their chromosomes, they do it because of their understanding of their physical differences and how they can use them to dominate. They’ve learned that from culture and socially normalised behaviour.

I’m not a particularly feminine woman, I don’t believe that makes me a man, I don’t feel like male. My mother isn’t either, she definitely wouldn’t identify as male.

I’m not especially maternal, I don’t go all soppy over babies. I’ve got a disabled stepson that I adore, but none of my own and no plans to have any. That doesn’t make me male either.

I’m saying the ways I know I’m not male because in essence my gender ID is female because I know it is, I recognise myself in my own life, as a woman.

I have always, genuinely, been okay with accepting the identity that others told me they have. I don’t live inside them, I don’t claim to know their identity. They do, and unless I have reason not to, I believe them.

I know that’s “wooly,” but believing others in their own sense of self is enough for me.

I joked earlier about Shania Twain, but I believe you can feel like a woman.

I understand however that others don’t feel comfortable allowing trans women into their space just because I accept their self ID.

Because I know that science exists, I can see that for some - that’s all the counts in the discussion.

I’m not one of them, “I identify as female and would like to be here” worked fine for me, because I’m okay with the vagueness of gender.

If you’re not, and have to rely on fact based biology, then there’s obviously a clear difference between female and not.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 24/04/2025 21:50

For the record, I never said there was anything wrong with women i.e. myself

You're not a woman though.

Stepfordian · 24/04/2025 21:50

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:23

FWIW I don’t believe TWAW.

I have made clear that I understand sex based biology and that it is clearly and quite obviously different. I didn’t need a court judgement to tell me that being born female is different to not being.

I don’t believe you can become a woman. You’re born one, or you’re not. Sex is fixed.

I do however recognise gender identity as ‘enough’ to be in those spaces. If someone, born male, identifies as female and wants to therefore be in that space, I had genuinely no issue with that and don’t auto-equate it to male violence.

Someone self IDing as female doesn’t offend me, but I don’t believe they’ve changed sex. That’s a physical impossibility.

I refer to trans women as trans women, not women. I refer to them as she, because that’s their gender ID. The same way I oblige with they/them for non-binary.

But I actually don’t believe that anyone can join the sex class of female, I believe they can have the same gender ID.

You sound very naïve, do you just believe everything someone tells you or do you think something magical happens when someone declares their gender identity and they cannot possibly be a risk in the way all other men potentially pose a risk to women?

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 24/04/2025 21:51

I do want you to realise also that I do plan to be a mother

Really? You'll find that awfully difficult without a uterus.

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:51

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 21:36

Oh got it. So it’s not being kind. So what is it? How does someone know they have a female gender identity? I mean, I know my sex is female, cos biology, but I have no clue what my gender identity is. You seem clued up on this stuff and you did say you wanted to support everyone, so I’ll wait for your help.

This is part of the reason why I prefer to have a gender based approach.

The idea that I wouldn’t know who I was beyond having a female body is just not for me.

Honestly, each to their own, but I don’t want to be just my biology.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 24/04/2025 21:52

So you've got a boyfriend.

That just makes you a gay man, doesn't it? If not, why not?

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 21:52

Stepfordian · 24/04/2025 21:50

You sound very naïve, do you just believe everything someone tells you or do you think something magical happens when someone declares their gender identity and they cannot possibly be a risk in the way all other men potentially pose a risk to women?

I don’t believe that all men pose a risk to me. That’s probably where that part of the conversation ends.

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