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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 08:20

AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 05:39

I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

The thing is, if I woke up tomorrow with my same brain and the body of a man (Quantum Leap-style), there is absolutely zero chance that I would use women's toilets/changing rooms service etc.

I might feel very odd using the men's toilets, and may prefer a private cubicle where possible, but it would be inconceivable to cause distress to other women by entering the women's single sex spaces.

Even if I modified my body, I still wouldn't want to use the women's spaces as it would cause distress to some women.

Why do transwomen think that they have the right to access women's spaces even if hypothetically they were to have a female brain? Is it a lack of empathy?

It's a shame transwomen who claim to identify as women, rarely seem to identify with women.

Edited

They don't have a female brain any more than they have female fingernails or female tongues or female noses or ears. If it's encased in a male skull, it's a male brain.

His claims of feminised brain and the entire gamut of wrong sex brain theories (where the boy baby is exposed to female hormones in utero causing an imbalance) have been credibly refuted.

This person is a man who thinks his wish to appear like a woman makes him a woman. He has effected changes in his body to resemble a woman's, externally. What all women aka female people have in common is our female biology, which this person will never have. His subjective experience will never overlap with the embodied experience of female humans.

He has a male HPG axis and unless he's had his testicles removed, will have to suppress T while consuming opposite sex hormones in far greater amounts than women need them.

I'd hazard a guess that ~98pct of women, including those post menopause, don't take female hormone supplements, meanwhile ~100pct of these "female brained" male individuals do. If his brain really thought it was in a female body, it would magically manifest a female HPG axis.

All this is to say that despite the cosmetic changes and endocrine disruption, OP has even less in common with women than he does with non-gender-incongruent men.

His initial post gave only the impression of being conciliatory, it's anything but. There's no middle ground here. He still wants to further the stance that men who undergo elective surgery and take cross sex hormones exogenously have earned the right to be called women and to be treated as indistinguishable from women when it comes to female single sex provisions. It's the same old male entitlement, self absorption and emotional manipulation (but I made the effort, I committed to the con) in the garb of Tru Trans or trans medicalisation.

Honestly, I was sympathetic with his stance until he started saying calling him a man is offensive and putting forward the case by case nonsense trans people resort to to inject doubt into what is otherwise an obvious situation. No regard for female athletes. He's unsporting, you see.

Women's sports are not for effete men. End of. Yes, 50 year old unathletic men can't outperform the most elite female sportswomen. That doesn't call into question , the male/female basis on which sporting events are divided. We don't need to reorganize our lives and erase our existence as a socio-political group independent of men to appease him or others of his ilk.

And for all his insistence that no woman can tell -- many can. We are too polite to say anything about it. I lived in East Asia, where men tend to have a slighter built and aren't as hirsute as elsewhere. That still didn't mean East Asian MtFs 'passed' perfectly in all instances. Next to women of the same ethnicity, the differences become obvious. Women are just much more astute at correctly sexing individuals.

A lot of them think not arresting male puberty stopped them from becoming the supermodel of their dreams. Again, wrong. Once the twink phase ends, they begin to age like men. The trans woman who won model of the year is plainly male, a dead ringer for Jeff Starr. Kim Petras and that Euphoria actor both look off, especially in motion. Nikkie Tutorials as well. The gait and skeletal structure, size of the limbs and face give it away. They tend to look like beautiful, ectomorphic men. Not even the most attractive men come close to being as lovely as beautiful women.

ImConfusedDotComHelp · 24/04/2025 08:24

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 03:24

Oh actually I can engage with this quite well and thank you for reading this and keeping it civil.

So I dont force people to refer to me as she and never have. Though, to be fair, people just tend to do this by default. I actually find it very rude to tell someone that and I find it very hard to tell people not to call me he. I do feel that it is my right as a person in society to inform people what not to call me because obviously that does fall under harrasment but as far as making people call me something no, I never have and I never will. It was a request only.

'it’s not acceptable for someone who is white to self identify as someone who is black' - This is something ive heard before and I find the point to be abit lacking scientifically and it to be a conflation.
I think that race is so much more genetically complex than sex is and I also think race is entirely pre determined by your ancestral genetics whereas sex is not. However, I do understand that going Male to Female carries with it certain sensitivities that cant just be ignored which is I why I said what I said in my intial post.
I dont also think that it is possible to have a 'black brain' and Im not aware of any real serious studies outside of what I imagine are far right circles that would ever find this.
However the studies on sex differences in the brain are real and we cant just ignore that as a reality. I admit it would have been a far better outcome for me to have had those structures changed in my brain but thats not even remotely possible. All I had availible to me was to change my sex as far and as imperfectly as possible.

'it’s not acceptable to self identify your age - schooling, pensions etc are not self identify.' I mean with respect, I dont really feel this is a valid point.

'on the same basis, you are not a woman. And it’s not ok to try to compel others to accept you as one.' I mean its fine for you to have that opinion thats why I wrote I know many will not accept me. However I do disagree and I do feel my brain/body misallignment cant just be ignored.

'now I don’t care whether you choose to present as feminine or masculine. You can wear a skirt, anything you like that’s socially acceptable in the public place. Wear all the make up you like. Whatever. Choose your own name - fine, but please don’t change it three times a week it’s hard to keep up.' - I mean you are just describing gender expression here which isnt really anything I refered to. I think expression is really just a social construction based loosely around biological realities. I dont think this really makes much difference to what my formed gender identity from birth actually is.

'but other people are allowed to say what they want about whether you are a woman or not.' To some degree. But we also live in a decent lawful society and I think that we have to be mindful of that and take that into account. For the record, I dont paticulary have too much concerns on what peoples personal beleifs are here. I think that most of my intial message was based around how we might make this work for everyone.

Edited

So you don't think it's appropriate to self identify as black, older, younger, different race, etc BUT, YOU feel its OK to self identify as the opposite sex. So all the other categories not OK but self identification as opposite sex is ok according to YOU. Women meanwhile should accept that. That's a man type perspective that men tend to use against women.

Dress as you please, live your life but you still cannot change sex.

UpsideDownChairs · 24/04/2025 08:24

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:08

Im not playing words games with this one.
Do you think chess should be gender segreagated or not?

Chess is gender segregated for sociological reasons (ie. actually for gender reasons, not sex reasons, unlike other sports/games) - historically, women were excluded, socially, in lots of places it's still tougher for women to get involved in the chess eco-system. For example, in some places, women are required to wear special clothes in order to compete, where men have no such requirement.

If we ever get to a stage where women aren't socially inhibited from playing chess, then we can go to only mixed competitions. Until then, to encourage participation from women and girls, women-only competitions are a good idea (as well as open categories that anyone can enter)

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:26

SpidersAreShitheads · 24/04/2025 08:08

To be fair, you said you'd gone, and actually I was just really bloody cross.

We agree to avoid using words like "man" and he/him pronouns out of kindness because lord knows, lots of us still actually try to be kind when it doesn't conflict with our rights.

As I thought you'd left and weren't returning, I didn't try to tiptoe around and engage in the usual language contortions. However, I wouldn't have actually used those words directly to you - even though they're technically correct.

The thing is, you've arrived on this forum to do what? Educate us all? You think we haven't heard similar arguments, time after time after time?

And you keep insisting that you're a woman. You're not. You're a trans woman. The two are not the same thing. That's not insulting, it's just honesty. I'm sorry that causes you pain but it's a fact.

You need to meet us halfway if you want us to take what you're saying seriously. You're just expecting us to all nod sagely at your imparted wisdom and scolding us for "shouting" when we don't immediately accede to what you think.

I don't hate you or any other trans person. Most of my friends are gay, so LGBT has been my world for a long time.

But if you're going to come to a woman's forum, at least have the decency to act like it's a two-way conversation rather than a TED talk you're giving.

'However, I wouldn't have actually used those words directly to you' Well thank you

'The thing is, you've arrived on this forum to do what? Educate us all?' Oh GOD no, the thought of me educating anyone genuinely brings me intense trepidation.
What I Initially wanted was to share perspectives and try to break through the rhetoric. Alot of rhetoric still happened but Idk, theres been some good exchanges I think. What do you think?

I think that at the end of the day we all have to live together and id rather do that with talking, because I love communicating and Id feel better if we all shared love and not hatred. Theres enough hatred in the world from people like Trump, Putin and so on. While we are all arguing over whos really a woman people like that are using our division to really put through some really horrid anti feminist things. I mean you might feel like you are winning now because someone like trump is using this issue but we are all just going to lose eventually and thats what im worried about both as a woman and as someone who is trans.

'And you keep insisting that you're a woman. You're not.' Lets agree to disagree.
'I'm sorry that causes you pain but it's a fact.' I mean yeah it does but ive also read everything that is uh well Id call it transphobic but for the purposes of getting past it and getting on I'll say derogatory things about someone like me. So I guess Im quite thick skinned in some ways now.

I mean, for example, I have been doxed by neo nazis. These are people that dont just say Im a man but genuinely just want to kill me or cause me real harm and I dont think the sensitivity of what It means to be someone like me in the world is often talked about when people talk about me. On top of people like that I have the same threat from men as any woman has and I have to navigate a world that is growing increasingly hostile to me.

I do think its a two way conversation but I also want to nudge you to notice that having quite alot of people replying at once can be quite hard. I also think I have met you half way. In the very start I conceded that self ID is not a good idea. That medicalisation to use womens spaces is a must and there must be decent due process to legally change your sex. Though with the last one I do still think the due process could be alot less humiliating and confusing. I mean go in a trans subreddit and see if you can find someone saying that.

At the end of the day I just want the discrimination to stop. I just want people to stop ramping all this up. I dont care that I have to go through hoops and hurdles I genunely dont care. I would rather it exists and I would rather I can get on in peace than how things currently are.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:27

UpsideDownChairs · 24/04/2025 08:24

Chess is gender segregated for sociological reasons (ie. actually for gender reasons, not sex reasons, unlike other sports/games) - historically, women were excluded, socially, in lots of places it's still tougher for women to get involved in the chess eco-system. For example, in some places, women are required to wear special clothes in order to compete, where men have no such requirement.

If we ever get to a stage where women aren't socially inhibited from playing chess, then we can go to only mixed competitions. Until then, to encourage participation from women and girls, women-only competitions are a good idea (as well as open categories that anyone can enter)

Edited

Yeah thats just shit actually, I didnt know about the clothes thing. Genuinely disgusts me. Still think its time for the segregation to end though.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:28

ImConfusedDotComHelp · 24/04/2025 08:24

So you don't think it's appropriate to self identify as black, older, younger, different race, etc BUT, YOU feel its OK to self identify as the opposite sex. So all the other categories not OK but self identification as opposite sex is ok according to YOU. Women meanwhile should accept that. That's a man type perspective that men tend to use against women.

Dress as you please, live your life but you still cannot change sex.

Edited

Ive answered this on the first page. Please feel free to read it.

OP posts:
FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:29

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 08:20

They don't have a female brain any more than they have female fingernails or female tongues or female noses or ears. If it's encased in a male skull, it's a male brain.

His claims of feminised brain and the entire gamut of wrong sex brain theories (where the boy baby is exposed to female hormones in utero causing an imbalance) have been credibly refuted.

This person is a man who thinks his wish to appear like a woman makes him a woman. He has effected changes in his body to resemble a woman's, externally. What all women aka female people have in common is our female biology, which this person will never have. His subjective experience will never overlap with the embodied experience of female humans.

He has a male HPG axis and unless he's had his testicles removed, will have to suppress T while consuming opposite sex hormones in far greater amounts than women need them.

I'd hazard a guess that ~98pct of women, including those post menopause, don't take female hormone supplements, meanwhile ~100pct of these "female brained" male individuals do. If his brain really thought it was in a female body, it would magically manifest a female HPG axis.

All this is to say that despite the cosmetic changes and endocrine disruption, OP has even less in common with women than he does with non-gender-incongruent men.

His initial post gave only the impression of being conciliatory, it's anything but. There's no middle ground here. He still wants to further the stance that men who undergo elective surgery and take cross sex hormones exogenously have earned the right to be called women and to be treated as indistinguishable from women when it comes to female single sex provisions. It's the same old male entitlement, self absorption and emotional manipulation (but I made the effort, I committed to the con) in the garb of Tru Trans or trans medicalisation.

Honestly, I was sympathetic with his stance until he started saying calling him a man is offensive and putting forward the case by case nonsense trans people resort to to inject doubt into what is otherwise an obvious situation. No regard for female athletes. He's unsporting, you see.

Women's sports are not for effete men. End of. Yes, 50 year old unathletic men can't outperform the most elite female sportswomen. That doesn't call into question , the male/female basis on which sporting events are divided. We don't need to reorganize our lives and erase our existence as a socio-political group independent of men to appease him or others of his ilk.

And for all his insistence that no woman can tell -- many can. We are too polite to say anything about it. I lived in East Asia, where men tend to have a slighter built and aren't as hirsute as elsewhere. That still didn't mean East Asian MtFs 'passed' perfectly in all instances. Next to women of the same ethnicity, the differences become obvious. Women are just much more astute at correctly sexing individuals.

A lot of them think not arresting male puberty stopped them from becoming the supermodel of their dreams. Again, wrong. Once the twink phase ends, they begin to age like men. The trans woman who won model of the year is plainly male, a dead ringer for Jeff Starr. Kim Petras and that Euphoria actor both look off, especially in motion. Nikkie Tutorials as well. The gait and skeletal structure, size of the limbs and face give it away. They tend to look like beautiful, ectomorphic men. Not even the most attractive men come close to being as lovely as beautiful women.

Why are you talking about me like im not here?
And why do you feel the misgendering is nessescary?
How are we to agree on anything with this kind of thing going on?

OP posts:
EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 08:29

So how do you think it ought to work? On a day to day, practical level which males would be allowed into women’s spaces and how would that be managed?

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 08:30

They take a flat dose of ♀️ hormones to hijack their forever male HPG axis and have the audacity to claim their GI issues stem from menstruation. 🤦🏻‍♀️ The causes of women's menstrual symptoms and your guy issues are not the same. No, sir. Your indigestion doesn't mean you have a female follicular phase, ovulation, luteal phase pr anything remotely like it.

Again, if your brain thought there's a womb inside your body, your renegade male HPG axis would miraculously turn female. You don't have female gonads and will never experience menstrual symptoms. Your distress is the result of endocrine problems - purely of your own making.

For example, some women may experience back pain or headaches during pregnancy. You as a man might have back aches and headaches but it's not because your body is producing hormones akin to the hundreds of finetuned changes that occur in a woman's body during pregnancy. You can't be reasoned with.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:30

EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 08:29

So how do you think it ought to work? On a day to day, practical level which males would be allowed into women’s spaces and how would that be managed?

Well I obviously think thats a false frame and premise. So I cant answer your question sadly.

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 24/04/2025 08:31

You might not be aware that when Venice Allan organised one of the earliest events to talk about this, she invited Stonewall to give their viewpoint. Instead of engaging the TRAs bullied the venue into cancelling, beat up a 60-year-old woman on the way to the new venue & then stood round it shouting BURN IT DOWN! I know because I was there.
How’s that for conciliation?

mmm and do you not think this happens both ways?
Because I can assure you that it does.

Does it bollocks!

Furtivenasturtium · 24/04/2025 08:33

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:28

Ive answered this on the first page. Please feel free to read it.

Where is this evidence of gendered brains?

UpsideDownChairs · 24/04/2025 08:33

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:27

Yeah thats just shit actually, I didnt know about the clothes thing. Genuinely disgusts me. Still think its time for the segregation to end though.

It's time for women's competitions to end, when women are no-longer at a disadvantage in the sport. It's not for you to decide.

That medicalisation to use womens spaces is a must

Unworkable, and against human rights. You can't require medicalisation for a service.

and there must be decent due process to legally change your sex. Though with the last one I do still think the due process could be alot less humiliating and confusing.

Why? Why do we require a process to allow someone to legally pretend to have changed sex?

Can't we just all get along with whatever body mods we've chosen, whatever presentation we have, and like grownups, come to terms with our own sex?

Why do you want to destroy women's single sex provisions rather than do the work to come to terms with your own body?

Why is it humiliating to submit a couple of gas bills in your new name and pay a paltry fee? Claiming the dole is far more invasive and humiliating.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:33

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 08:30

They take a flat dose of ♀️ hormones to hijack their forever male HPG axis and have the audacity to claim their GI issues stem from menstruation. 🤦🏻‍♀️ The causes of women's menstrual symptoms and your guy issues are not the same. No, sir. Your indigestion doesn't mean you have a female follicular phase, ovulation, luteal phase pr anything remotely like it.

Again, if your brain thought there's a womb inside your body, your renegade male HPG axis would miraculously turn female. You don't have female gonads and will never experience menstrual symptoms. Your distress is the result of endocrine problems - purely of your own making.

For example, some women may experience back pain or headaches during pregnancy. You as a man might have back aches and headaches but it's not because your body is producing hormones akin to the hundreds of finetuned changes that occur in a woman's body during pregnancy. You can't be reasoned with.

sigh
Look ive been very polite throughout but I honestly just cant continue a conversation up with someone who is obviously going out of their way to be confrontational. If you want to take a look at how you are speaking to me then Id be happy to engage with you!

OP posts:
UpsideDownChairs · 24/04/2025 08:36

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:30

Well I obviously think thats a false frame and premise. So I cant answer your question sadly.

ROFL - that's the on the ground practicality - how do we know that the man coming in the ladies has his certificate, is medicalised and therefore by your argument should be allowed into the same changing room as my niece? That's the actual, real-life problem to solve. If you don't have a solution for it, then what are you bringing to the discussion?

UpsideDownChairs · 24/04/2025 08:36

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:33

sigh
Look ive been very polite throughout but I honestly just cant continue a conversation up with someone who is obviously going out of their way to be confrontational. If you want to take a look at how you are speaking to me then Id be happy to engage with you!

ROFL again!

Please stop bringing logic and science into the discussion, it's only about my feelings, why do you ladies have to be so basic!

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 08:37

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:29

Why are you talking about me like im not here?
And why do you feel the misgendering is nessescary?
How are we to agree on anything with this kind of thing going on?

It was addressed to all the readers including you, OP. What I was also doing was pointing out the logical and cognitive fallacies that characterize trans people's narrative. How it fixates on the superficial, wishing away anything that's inconvenient -- like woman being a standalone category distinct from men. Like women having rights and protections that are based on the material reality of their sex. Or that allowing a self-selecting group of men into women's spaces defeats the purpose of that space.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:38

UpsideDownChairs · 24/04/2025 08:33

It's time for women's competitions to end, when women are no-longer at a disadvantage in the sport. It's not for you to decide.

That medicalisation to use womens spaces is a must

Unworkable, and against human rights. You can't require medicalisation for a service.

and there must be decent due process to legally change your sex. Though with the last one I do still think the due process could be alot less humiliating and confusing.

Why? Why do we require a process to allow someone to legally pretend to have changed sex?

Can't we just all get along with whatever body mods we've chosen, whatever presentation we have, and like grownups, come to terms with our own sex?

Why do you want to destroy women's single sex provisions rather than do the work to come to terms with your own body?

Why is it humiliating to submit a couple of gas bills in your new name and pay a paltry fee? Claiming the dole is far more invasive and humiliating.

'It's time for women's competitions to end, when women are no-longer at a disadvantage in the sport. It's not for you to decide.'
Ive already addressed sport. And honestly I dont know anything about sport and ive already said that.

'That medicalisation to use womens spaces is a must
Unworkable, and against human rights. You can't require medicalisation for a service.
Well at least you admit it.

'Why? Why do we require a process to allow someone to legally pretend to have changed sex?'
Unworkable, and against human rights.

'Can't we just all get along with whatever body mods we've chosen, whatever presentation we have, and like grownups, come to terms with our own sex?'
There is vast scientific psychlogical work that supports gender identity and supports why transgender people cant just come to terms with thier own sex.
Most people can; we cant. Thats partly why we exist. So yeah, cant really just be erased.

'Why do you want to destroy women's single sex provisions rather than do the work to come to terms with your own body?' I did, I changed it to female. Ive already spoken about this in this thread several times.

'Why is it humiliating to submit a couple of gas bills in your new name and pay a paltry fee? Claiming the dole is far more invasive and humiliating.' The process is far more reaching than this. Have you done it?

OP posts:
wrongthinker · 24/04/2025 08:38

You haven't been polite in the slightest! How is it polite to walk into a room full of women and talk to us like we have no idea of the issues we've been analysing and campaigning on for decades? To tell us we have lady brains? To insist that noticing reality, I.e. that you are male, is attacking you? To compare us to nazis? To claim you have periods just like us? Wtf man? You've been unbelievably rude and offensive throughout and women here have still given you the time of day! You clearly are completely oblivious to how you come across.

EmpressaurusKitty · 24/04/2025 08:39

I’m genuinely curious so I’ll rephrase a bit. You talked about ‘hurdles’ in your first post. If it was agreed that transwomen who had jumped a certain number of hurdles should be allowed into women’s spaces, how would this be managed?

ImConfusedDotComHelp · 24/04/2025 08:39

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:28

Ive answered this on the first page. Please feel free to read it.

You answered from a male perspective that wants to be female. I don't agree that if you cannot identify as black, or other race, as younger or older, then why should identification as opposite sex be fine since biological men tell us it is. Nothing else is ok except that. Thanks mate, the more I read your replies the more biological maleness comes through your words.

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:39

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 08:37

It was addressed to all the readers including you, OP. What I was also doing was pointing out the logical and cognitive fallacies that characterize trans people's narrative. How it fixates on the superficial, wishing away anything that's inconvenient -- like woman being a standalone category distinct from men. Like women having rights and protections that are based on the material reality of their sex. Or that allowing a self-selecting group of men into women's spaces defeats the purpose of that space.

Well maybe you should have just addressed it to me seen as im the one trying to have the conversation.
Im a person, not a rhetorical piece. Thats why Im here.

OP posts:
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 08:40

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:38

'It's time for women's competitions to end, when women are no-longer at a disadvantage in the sport. It's not for you to decide.'
Ive already addressed sport. And honestly I dont know anything about sport and ive already said that.

'That medicalisation to use womens spaces is a must
Unworkable, and against human rights. You can't require medicalisation for a service.
Well at least you admit it.

'Why? Why do we require a process to allow someone to legally pretend to have changed sex?'
Unworkable, and against human rights.

'Can't we just all get along with whatever body mods we've chosen, whatever presentation we have, and like grownups, come to terms with our own sex?'
There is vast scientific psychlogical work that supports gender identity and supports why transgender people cant just come to terms with thier own sex.
Most people can; we cant. Thats partly why we exist. So yeah, cant really just be erased.

'Why do you want to destroy women's single sex provisions rather than do the work to come to terms with your own body?' I did, I changed it to female. Ive already spoken about this in this thread several times.

'Why is it humiliating to submit a couple of gas bills in your new name and pay a paltry fee? Claiming the dole is far more invasive and humiliating.' The process is far more reaching than this. Have you done it?

Nobody is erasing you. You are erasing us every time you call yourself a woman.

If you really can't use the spaces that have been created for people of your own sex, you need to campaign for your own spaces.

Why are trans people not doing this?

ImConfusedDotComHelp · 24/04/2025 08:40

wrongthinker · 24/04/2025 08:38

You haven't been polite in the slightest! How is it polite to walk into a room full of women and talk to us like we have no idea of the issues we've been analysing and campaigning on for decades? To tell us we have lady brains? To insist that noticing reality, I.e. that you are male, is attacking you? To compare us to nazis? To claim you have periods just like us? Wtf man? You've been unbelievably rude and offensive throughout and women here have still given you the time of day! You clearly are completely oblivious to how you come across.

Edited

Totally oblivious.

AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 08:41

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:29

Why are you talking about me like im not here?
And why do you feel the misgendering is nessescary?
How are we to agree on anything with this kind of thing going on?

Do you think we are really going to agree on anything when you don't agree the following?

1.the female sex class is a real thing. We are the class of humans who produce large immobile gametes and can become pregnant (medical issues aside). We do not and have never produced small mobile gametes.

2.we need language to refer to the female sex class (i.e. female, women and girls);

3.the female sex class deserve their own spaces with out any males, especially given that they are the victims in ~90% of rapes and sexual assaults (the perpetrators being male in 100% and ~98% of cases respectively).

4.transwomen are members of the male sex class.

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