Is it really Andrew Tate or do some boys just have terrible role models in the home?

[snughugs]

I’m seeing all this sexism in class stuff on TV just now, they blame Andrew Tate for everything. I bet a lot of these boys have Fathers and male role models who are the type of men we read about on the relationship boards here. You know the guys who want a submissive provider.

Porn would be an excellent place to start, as would routinely calling out casual misogyny in all contexts.

That's unlikely to happen as many men watch porn and have misogynist views. Misogyny works for men.

You're right, misogyny does work for men, but it doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good place to start nonetheless. And I do think we need to expect a kind of baseline for ourselves, because we can't be sure men will hold themselves to account.

Men were aggressively resistant to the idea of protecting children from accessing porn by having to age verify in case it affected their own access.

I think in those jnstances you describe, open communication is key. So, if someone hugs you and you're ok with that, but you reciprocate by touching them in different ways (tickling or patting) and she says she is not ok with that, you can say, "I'm sorry, I thought it might be ok because we hug one another, but of course I'll stop as you don't like it." Never, ever assume someone is joking if they tell you they don't like it or want you ti stop.
If (some) women seemed ok with certain behaviours in the past and now you see people discussing how these behaviours are harrassment and not ok, that's because women were taught, in the recent past, to comply with men's wishes and to keep quiet if they were scared or unhappy. They're now learning that they can say no and they're discussing that openly.

If that's confusing for you, imagine how much confusion and fear and harm women have lived with for a long time, thinking they had to allow men to do things they didn't want done to them.

As for Valentine's cards, that's fine: just make sure you find out what someone's views on them are, before sending them. Same as you would with any kind of gift, really.

Just ask, communicate, and the more people are oen, the less confusing things are, hopefully.

That's true. No males I knew growing up (lots of brothers, lots of friends' brothers, other male friends) had any problems whatsoever in handling their height and strength responsibly, though, so I think upbringing and culture are the main issue. Certainly there were none of these gendered problems around in my teens: boys and girls got along fine, there were usual teen relationship and sexual discovery ups and downs, but sexism just wasn't an issue among people we knew.

This is a man problem and men need to step up to sort men out and not leave women and children to bear the brunt of it
this is true, however one problem is that the nice decent men dont want to confront the bad men for fear of getting the shit kicked out of them

I see alot of “teaching boys about feminism racism etc”. I’m not sure this helps. The only thing you can do is model good behaviour, i worry teaching about these things only exacerbates them ie us vs them mentality. In other words putting boys as the bad guys from the start. It is better to teach fairness vs unfairness. I noticed sexism from age 4, it didn’t need explaining

I might get blasted for this but what’s wrong with chivalry? I always thought it was a good code to live by even as a woman. And men, being simple creatures, need a code.

Feminism is about understanding and freeing males from oppressive and damaging gender constructs, too, and about realising it's "us" not "them."

I was taught about racism, sexism and feminism from a very young age and can't recall any aspect of "us and them" in it, ever.

An important point of teaching it early is that it takes practice and understanding to see how deeply embedded and systemic many aspects are, and to understand how far-reaching the effects of seemingly small things are. For example, when I was at primary school, my family had explained to me that research had shown that even teachers who believed they were not sexist actually gave more attention to boys, so I was able to ook out for this in the classroom and see where I might need to put my hand up more or read more or tell my parents if I felt I was missing out as a result.

My son understood at primary school that girls might also want to play football, so he'd invite them to play; he also understood that it was healthy for him to cry or show vulnerability if he felt it.

Realising how males and females are portrayed in tv and books and how this affects our beliefs about ourselves is another good thing to teach children very young.

I've known a few primary school teachers who think boys need more outdoor play than girls – and then reinforce this stereotype in their work with young children. Ideally, primary school teachers would be taught how wrong this is and prevented from such dangerous practices, but it also helps to teach children to be aware of these prejudices and how they're in danger of being shaped by them.

I see what you mean about seeing what's fair and unfair, but a lot of sexism and racism is subtle and built on insidious cultural influences, so we need the tools to perceive these early on.

Yep. That's true.

FurtivenasturtiumIf (some) women seemed ok with certain behaviours in the past and now you see people discussing how these behaviours are harrassment and not ok, that's because women were taught, in the recent past, to comply with men's wishes and to keep quiet if they were scared or unhappy. They're now learning that they can say no and they're discussing that openly.

balony if a woman is ok with hugging which theyve instigiated why should there be an issue of patting on back stop blaming men for all of societys issues and making women out to be poor victims

as for valentines cards you know what i wouldnt bother because as ive said before everything seems to have to be on a womans terms now and men dont want to be accused of doing something innapropriate as far as im concerned women are too sensative now

It’s important to remember that we live in a society where life and how people portray their lives is highly edited and filtered, to a point where real life away from a screen looks vastly different and is in many ways mundane, boring and hopeless. Toxic masculinity slots perfectly into the conscious of boys who have grown up living a life validated by screens, it replaces the virtues of physical interaction and healthy relationships just as gaming replaced the need to socialise in person.

Anything other than total detoxification from the internet will have very little impact in avoiding the catastrophic consequences society faces in the coming years as these boys become young men and the rot truly sets in.

This mindset also aligns to misogynistic attitudes within many faiths and cultures, plus trends such as the ‘trad wife’ label, the further down this rabbit hole you go the more you realise just how difficult righting this wrong will be because it’s essentially now the way a vast number of males see themselves and the world.

Blame the ineffectual screen addicted parents and social media for this simmering disaster.

I disagree that it's screens. People are acting as though misogyny began with Andrew Tate and co.

We have a domestic abuse crisis in the UK and all those men abusing women weren't indoctrinated online.

One in four women will be abused, one in three sexually assaulted and two a week will die at the hands of men.That doesn't include women who kill themselves because of abuse.

"And men, being simple creatures, need a code."

What a spectacularly dehumanising statement.

Andrew Tate is a convenient placeholder for a whole range of people pushing the toxic masculinity agenda. Social media's definitely amplified that kind of bullshit but if it's mirrored by attitudes at home then it's going to feel more familiar and so seem more agreeable.

I was listening to a podcast recently which was talking about how adolescent boys are starting to face similar kinds of pressures over their appearance as has been the case for girls for decades. But while for girls there's a strong (entirely justified and very necessary) counter-narrative about self-acceptance and not conforming to the male gaze, the same for boys is lagging because for them that level of pressure is relatively new and so many boys are floundering trying to find a place and an identity. Andrew Tate et al offer easy answers.

Maitri108

1 in 10 men will also be abused in britain and thats only the recorded figures there will be more that arent recorded as men i believe are more embarressed to admit to being abused by theyre female partners due to past attitudes when they have went to the police and literally been laughed at so lets not pretend that domestic violance is one sided and stop making out that men are monsters and women are always the victims

@masterofdoom Do you have those stats? How many men are murdered by their partner/ex partner a week? How many men kill themselves because of abuse? How many men have been murdered by their female partner during 'rough sex'?

Women can't rape but can sexually assault. How many men are sexually assaulted by women per year?

Men commit the vast majority of violent crime in this country, that's evidenced by crime statistics.

I don’t have sons myself but the boys I know who seem to be decent and respectful have what would be considered dads who are quite firm (but not mean, different styles, gentler dads too tougher dads but the core message is the same) and they are expected to be behave in a respectful manner towards their mothers and sisters. Good modelling, It’s simply that.

My own family is quite dysfunctional but my brother knew there were red lines about how he behaved towards the women in our family (and girls generally, never needed an overt instruction on it, it was just understood). He’s a decent husband and his wife seems very happy with him.

I do think some boys need to be taught how to be responsible with their advantages. I’m going to sound so old fashioned but it used to be “don’t let a woman carry all the bags, if a lady needs a seat then you get up” and the obvious “you never ever lay a finger on a girl”. I look at my Dd’s school and I think boys seem to get a free pass from a very early age in their behaviour towards girls. I think we should just drop the toxic masculinity stuff and focus on consequences for hitting and harrassing girls at school from an early age. The rest I think is parenting. If boys grow up with positive relationships with women that are modelled by other men (even if it’s just healthy ones with mums and sisters and friends, I’m not even talking about romantic relationships) how likely are they to believe incel screed.

Maitri108 you brought up domestic violance i know you dont believe that woman are capable of doing such a thing but it goes on men have the highest suicide rate in scotland where i live Over ten years, 120 men have been killed by a partner/ex-partner women might not be able to rape but you know what they do sexually abuse children it goes on and thats worse so again stop making out that women are always victims and potraying men as monsters

Look around you at all the married or coupled up people. How many of them are that old trope of 6ft 2 earning 100k+. The evidence of your own eyes is there. The vast majority of us happily married people are not insta models or high earners. We are normal people and yet we manage to get meet, fall in love, etc etc.

This is the view of people who don’t spend enough time off the internet. Go outside, look at all the couples. Tell me that all those women are only with men who are loaded or don’t have jobs of their own.

Maitri108

ill take that back i remember a few years ago probably about 4 or 5 years now there was a school boy raped by a girl she got 4 of her freinds to pin him down while she raped him so it happens there was also a case a few years ago iin england at a school where girls were putting theyre hands down the boys trousers and sexually assaulting them if they caused a scene they were also verbally abused and labelled gay

User37482

i was talking about younger women and theyre unrealistic expectations and unfortunatly younger people are more easily influenced

User37482
This is the view of people who don’t spend enough time off the internet. Go outside, look at all the couples. Tell me that all those women are only with men who are loaded or don’t have jobs of their own.

bull ive heard younger women in real life making coments about how theyre princessess and how they deserve to be looked after your the one who doesnt live in the real world if you think no women have that attitude

@masterofdoom How about you produce those statistics and we'll talk about it.

You produce the evidence that women are as equally dangerous to men.

Maitri108i already did you didnt believe me your more than happy to potray women as victims and men as monsters nothing ill say will convince you other wise