Is it really Andrew Tate or do some boys just have terrible role models in the home?

[snughugs]

I’m seeing all this sexism in class stuff on TV just now, they blame Andrew Tate for everything. I bet a lot of these boys have Fathers and male role models who are the type of men we read about on the relationship boards here. You know the guys who want a submissive provider.

They don’t seem to know how to talk to women anymore. I blame families just sitting looking at phones instead of engaging in conversation. I talked to a young bloke in Greggs last week and he looked horrified! I am 58 but I think if I had slapped him across the face he would have been less horrified!

https://www.internetmatters.org/hub/press-release/new-research-sees-favourable-views-towards-andrew-tate-from-both-teen-boys-and-young-dads/

I don't think it is exclusively Andrew Tate and other social media but I think it has a lot to do with it. I also think there have been young men unable to engage with women for a very long time, especially some of those who went to an all boys school.

A fantastic role model in what way though? Parents need to be actively engaged in their dc's day to day lives, it takes time and effort, lots of parents don't make the time or effort.

He very much does make the effort. They are not the kind of family that sit on their phones the whole time.

He's always been the one picking up from school as his wife was a teacher, playing football together, watching rugby together.

@GargoylesofBeelzebubhow old is your nephew?

He's 16. Comes from a loving very much left wing family. Mum was a teacher until recently at a school with kids with lots of troubled home lives and issue so very aware of internet safety etc.

Confusion, uncertainty have always been features of adolescence for boys and girls.

Can you not remember your own school days? Even if you don't recall any confusion in adolescence, you must surely remember others who did.

I don't know, but I've been very shocked at how little attention parents seem to give to teaching their children about sexism, feminism, misogyny, gender issues throughout nursery and primary school, compared to when I was a child living in the same area in the 1980s.

Our nursery was brilliant: any gender stereotyping (e.g. girls must wear pink, boys only football girls only dolls) was not allowed (it was in the nursery contract and rules) immediately noted and discussed age appropriately.

Primary school seemed less onto the issue until years 5 and 6, where they had excellent classes on equality and gender.

Parents, however, seemed either entirely uninterested or were actively working against this, teaching their children that boys and girls have innate traits and abilities, e.g. "boys don't cry," "girls are more empathic," "men are better at coding."

This was alongside with ignoring or encouraging aggressive behaviours in boys, mostly laughing it off as "boys will be boys."

My own son is very quiet and shy and the local dads would comment or mock him (then just walk off when I stood up for him).

I taught my son about sexism and feminism from age 2 or 3. He knew Cbeebies was biased towards male leads (Octonauts anyone? 😆 over the top, maybe, but it really is important to notice these things), knows how to do the Bechdel test for video games (they tend to fail) and how these hidden biases we take for granted have immense influence on everyday life.

Now in year 7 he's at unfortunately very sexist all boys' state school, but has already written about women's oppression in an English exam. He rolls his eyes and says, "I know I know" whenever I mention these topics, bit at least he's taken it on board.

It does help that his dad does a lot more housework than I do and tells him.that what I say about sexism is true.

Apologies I thought you were making a point relevant to the thread but you were just saying that young people are confused. Girls are also confused and aren't behaving in the same way.

I don't think there has ever been any evidence whatsoever that males have higher sex drives or aggression biologically, although it's encouraged culturally, but the myth that they do is certainly one of the most harmful factors in male behaviours.

Girls have always, culturally, been taught to deny, repress or mute their sexuality or, rather, to channel it into looks rather than action. Their anger and aggression tends to be turned inwards.

My teen son is Autistic and would probably be that guy. And you'd possibly not realise he's Autistic but think he's just a rude little shit. Which he can come across at times unfortunately.

I worry Autistic boys like my son are at risk here. My son has black and white thinking on many points. He is regularly laughing at ' Karen' memes. I myself only this year actively stopped saying Karen because I didn't even think how this feeds part of our problem. Being on MN is what made me stop and pause and realise it's not good.

So I challenge my son continually and make him change the channel ( YouTube) but it feels like a never ending battle. Boys in school are calling girls slags, I've heard them. My son said slag when a girl was cruel to him. A few other things have cropped up that I don't like and challenge.

And I think, how on earth am I going to steer him completely away from this. I'm no wallflower, I stand my ground and will make my point here and known on all these issues. We debate regularly. He just doesn't like my views and thinks they're over reactions. They aren't.

So I don't blame Tate but the onslaught of messages and unpleasant views is coming at us and kids from multiple angles now. It feels impossible to ward it all off.

Someone mentioned the football coaches. We had the best wonderful male role model coach for one team. My son moved up a level and I can see the mindset isn't quite the same and it's ' laddish'. It's so difficult out there right now is my sense.

Thinking back to my youth, all these views and comments were normal and probably worse. I never questioned it until recent years.

im a guy i dont consider myself to be sexist but it suprises me how society talks about men and toxic masculinity but there seems to be double standards ive seen many a video on you tube where women will refuse to date a guy unless hes earning a couple hundred k a year drives a sports car has his own property and can give her a luxury lifestyle when asked what they bring to the table theyll come back with stuff like sense of humour conversation etc that never seems to be brought up female attitudes like that and to me that needs to be addressed as well women want equallity no problem with that but seems theyre giving guys mixed signals and guys dont know where we stand

I wasn't the person who said they were confused, I was just replying to your comment which seemed faux naive, as does your reply to me!

Adolescents are often confused about the process of turning from a child into an adult.

Perhaps because women are individuals. Who would want to go out with a woman like that?
There are men who only want to date women with blonde hair and big breasts, make up, or women who will do the housework. I don't want to date men like that, so I date men whose values and tastes are more aligned with my own.

I hear that perspective too. You might have watched some of those podcasts I've seen. Please tell me you don't watch ' Whatever ' podcast and Andrew Wilson though. They do purposely bring on immature, alot to learn, young women who don't realise they're going on there to be stitched up.

I watched one guy, Kevin Samuels. A professional life / dating coach guy who had a video podcast. Women in the black community would call in for advice. It is hilarious as he was brutally honest with them. Their expectations were often unreasonable and it was often cruel. Hearing that, I understood why some guys would feel ' what hope is there' 🤦.

I'm not sure why you keep repeating yourself as you're not adding anything to the discussion by saying young people in general are confused. People are confused all the time by many things but that's not the topic of the thread; confusion.

I want to know what boys are confused about that makes them influenced by people like Andrew Tate and bark at teachers or refuse to speak to female teachers.

Girls can also be confused but they're not behaving in the same way.

I think Tate is just part of the confusing messages online given to boys and men.

And girls and women are given confusing messages online.

Social media is so huge in many people's lives, not just the young and I don’t think many people know how to navigate it.

I watch alot of dross online. When I look at the messages underlying the ' boys are confused ' mantra, it feels like the likes of Jordan Peterson for example are saying women's roles have changed so much that the traditional provider male role doesn't feelrelevant anymore or the role to aspire to. Because women don't need that from them in modern times in the way prior generations did.

Then you add the free and ready access to sex at every turn and it further moves both boys and girls away from prior generational norms because sex is now no longer something accessible to guys through marriage and commitment in the same way.

So it's confusing - only compared to what we have historically known.

So boys might think , what's my role in relation to females or when I'm older as a man in relation to a woman.

I personally feel this type of dialogue, perpetuated by Jordan Peterson for example, is important to discuss. It does however feel a bit like a smokescreen. The smokescreen for anger, frustration and most important RESENTMENT many guys feel.

Resentment that women don't need men in the way they used to for survival. This ultimately means they're no longer available as house maids and sex servants. The last sentence is for me the crux of all of it tbh.

Yeah, that's YouTube for you isn't it. I'd get to know some real life women if I were you.

Tate is the BBC bogeyman some of what he says is good advice get fit, present yourself well, stop watching porn in your bedroom and wanking yourself silly.Problem he’s cleverly sandwiched it with other nonsense. But he’s tapped into a void . I more positive man could also do the same my fear would be they would get tarred with the same brush.

I was brought up by a patriarchal Dad with strong views of how men and women behave. He never banked on having a 90’s metrosexual dance loving fashion loving mumsnet reading straight man for a son. Even now he is applaud by how I am with my lads.

So I don’t believe that your role model is key for everyone certainly wasn’t for me if anything it did the opposite.

What I do see is young men who are struggling with the current world one where I don’t believe they can currently win. I am genuinely hoping that there will be another youth movement like I had it changed us all working class northern lads for the better.

Edit: this is in response to the guy talking about double standards in dating, but I forgot to press quote!

Toxic masculinity is everywhere. It should be talked about as it negatively affects both men and women.

It is a double standard, but all women are different, as are men. Many men only want a skinny woman, or blonde women, or etc. This is no different. There are plenty of women who wouldn't say that, as I'm sure there are plenty of men who are also less specific.

I can't help but internally scream when women are talking about Andrew Tate, who is dangerous and radicalises young men into committing violence and hating women, only for a man to come along and talk about standards in dating. For women, Andrew Tate is terrifying. We are frightened of boys growing up to become monsters who abuse and murder us. And you are on a thread about this topic, talking about mixed signals in dating. Really highlights the difference in our struggles, doesn't it? Do you really think dating isn't hard for us too? We are navigating picking out the men who aren't abusers, men who don't want a maid, men who aren't just looking for sex, and so on.

I'm sorry if I won't cry a river over men feeling confused about the modern role of 'man' in a relationships. I truly think the crux of it is that women don't accept as much bullshit anymore, and need men less, which makes us less accessible for things like sex.

@Pleaseshutthefuckup We're talking about school children behaving this way, not men. Why are 12 year olds watching Jordan Peterson?

What relevance is a man's role in 'traditional' relationships to a school child? In general, school children don't have access to sex anyway because they're underage.

School boys aren't watching two hour YouTube videos on anthropology and Jordan Peterson. They're being indoctrinated with 30 second Tiktok videos and porn.

@GargoylesofBeelzebub extremely left wing family. This is the issue all over politics is too polarised these days. It’s unhealthy at either end of the spectrum. It may actually be the reason, having a knee jerk reaction to it. Teens have rebelled against what their parents hold dear since the start of time and will continue to do so. DH cousin had enforced veganism at home, as soon as they had money of their own they were at Mc Donald and scoffing Greggs sausage rolls.

Andrew Tate is 38. He was 8 years old when I started teaching. There has always been misogyny. We need to teach our girls to push back, hard. We need to teach our boys how to behave towards other people. It’s not all about Andrew Tate.

Many excellent points here.
one of the biggest issues is the conversation about toxic masculinity. Lots of misunderstanding of it and conflating it with masculinity.
There has to be an acknowledgment that boys and girls are not the same and trying to force “same-ness” has got us here.
This is mainly where boys have got confused and where they need good males to show them that it’s ok to be masculine and here’s how to do it.

Trump comes out with messages like this. That men aren't allowed to be men anymore, that being a man is seen as toxic.

He encourages men to be men - what does that mean?