Should we bring back more single sex schools

[Ddakji]

Slightly following on from some of the threads about Adolescence (which I haven’t seen), I started wondering - has the demise of boys’ schools negatively impacted boys?

I’d be really interested to hear from others, especially the parents of boys - I have one DD (15h who’s been in mixed sex schools most of the time but is now in a girls’ school.

Good points, @BobLobla

Sorry - I swerved off the point a bit in my last two posts but I think the single-sex argument is not the ultimate answer if the question is about succeeding, thriving and the well-being of both sexes.

Oh, absolutely, I don’t disagree with that - my musings are more of a secondary consideration.

I would agree with this. There are many issues to do with poverty (including poverty of expectations), cultural and social factors. It's a very complex web, and divisions along sex do not provide the answers.

I think schools should be a microcosm of society really to help prepare kids for life and the world as much as anything. Single sex schools are an artificial construct really, borne traditionally of divided societal expectations between the sexes and probably out of prudery too. My 1980s girls grammar education prepared me not one jot for the real world. Friendships between sexes are so important in building respect and understanding.

Where it doesn’t work is when girls are subjected to sexual bullying and become worn down by it to the point they don’t see it as worth reporting and accept it as part of their lot in life. Culture change is needed - within the schools’ ethos and organisation - and in wider society. Having worked in secondary schools for 31 years I think there is much that can be done, but perhaps more effective when in a mixed sex environment.

It makes me so sad that so many people have the expectation of a girls' school as being a "bitchfest". As though girls need diluting or supervising by males to make sure that their inner bitches are kept in check. A clear example of deeply ingrained misogyny in our society.

No, I don't think boys and girls learn differently at all, tbh, when it comes to maths. They are socialised differently, so a girl might be less confident and require more reassurance, a boy might need more prompting to show all his working out and be methodical but there are many examples of less confident boys or messier girls. I'd teach them how to e.g. solve simultaneous equations in exactly the same way.

This is for maths though, I'm not sure that subjects that require more reading and writing would agree with me.

Behaviour can be more challenging if you have a boy-heavy class, particularly (from personal experience) if they play rugby or football together. That seems to encourage a particular 'banter' type bravado.

I think also that cultural sensitivities/attitudes should not take precedence. It's such a thorny issue, but we're dealing with a lot of misogyny and homophobia at the moment. It's a complex web, but I'm glad we're taking a firm line.

I agree. We have a "zero banter" rule. Some staff think it's silly, but honestly it makes a difference. They learn not to initiate or respond to certain things.

My gran worked in one of the first big mixed comps. Whilst the rules and sanctions were (officially) the same for everyone, they had separate teachers in charge of boys' discipline and girls' discipline.

This seems very sensible to me (teacher, mixed school). There's always going to be an element of resentment when issuing sanctions, so it makes sense to at least take the sex element out of the equation.

I don't think it would be workable these days, though. We're expected to recognise the disparity between boys' and girls' attainment, and to take steps to redress this, whilst treating boys and girls identically the same, but that's not really working.

Not RDFT but here we have a boys grammar which produced one of the misogynists on the internet. There was a lot of local discussion about how the single sex environment had contributed to this. I think the issue is more that in mixed schools boys dominate. The teachers don't seem to be able to stop this or see it in many cases, meaning girls are overlooked, not seen as interesting/able purely because generally they are less disruptive. The boys get negative attention from staff and girls as well as a tough rep from the boys.

Therefore I personally think single sex schools for girls work better; to allow them to become as confident as the boys, not be pushed out of some subjects and have reward for their good behaviours without distraction.

My mum (retired last year from job as secondary school teacher) has recently changed her mind on single sex schools. Previously she was neutral/slightly anti, but now she says if my sisters and I were in primary school now, with the things she saw at her secondary school, she’d definitely want us to go to a single sex secondary school.

I went to both a single sex and co-ed high school. Having experienced both, I was very clear about choosing a co-ed high school for my own children.

LlynTegid · Yesterday 18:54
I think boys at all boys schools seem to have poor thoughts about women, or at least ignorance

Do none of these boys have sisters?

I thought the evidence showed that boys generally do better in a mixed school and girls generally do better in a single sex school, but that could be out of date now. I went to an all girl’s school and in general I think it was better for me, I am quite introverted and would have been overwhelmed at that age by boy’s who could have been rougher and louder. However I was badly bullied for a number of years, and perhaps that was because lots of girls together can become quite bitchy.

Can we ask why? I had the same and did the opposite!

Sadly having a sister doesn't = not a misogynist. If you watch Adolescence you can see how easy it is for families to think they are picture perfect without actually instilling any coping mechanisms for stress at all.

I found the girls in the single sex school were very catty and also silly about boys in general.

On a more personal level, I don't have brothers and don't have any males in my life other than my father (or didn't at the time). I had no idea about how to talk to boys and was a bit scared of them. They might as well have been aliens. When I went to the mixed sex school I very quickly learned they weren't that complicated and got comfortable with them.

I think it's more natural to have mixed sex and it helps both sides learn to relate to the opposite sex better.

Granted that most people probably have other males their age in their circle somewhere, unlike me.

That is interesting. I also didn't have men about and was worried about communicating, but as you said, boys are not particularly complex and I realised very quickly that wasn't an issue. What was an issue was the teachers ignoring girls because boys were acting up. Boys smirking at girls in class to make them less confident. Every girl being worried about clothes, hair and makeup unless they were "unpopular". It was tedious and completely distracting from what we were at school for.

Thanks, @noblegiraffe,that’s very interesting, and a good point that essay-heavy subjects may have a very different take.

DD has gone from a co-ed to a girls school in Year10 and she has commented that the difference in the classroom is stark (her class in Yrs 7-9 was boy-heavy). It wasn’t actually why we moved her but I think she’d simply become inured to the disruption caused by boisterous boys (her primary class was similar, but she never mentioned it at the time). 10 years of boys’ behaviour dominating the classroom that she won’t get back. And the friendships were pretty much split along boy/girl lines as well. So I suppose I’m a bit ambiguous as to the benefits of mixed schools. There were some right little Andrew Tates in the making as well, despite the school bigging up how much they were addressing this.

The curriculum was also geared for the boys in some areas, e.g. the history GCSE was very war-heavy, unlike in her new school. But other subjects may have been more set up for girls (and I understand that this is a socialisation thing, not necessarily innate).

She hasn’t found the girls to be any better or worse that the girls at her co-ed school.

That's quite different from my experience. I found that more in the single sex school (the concern about looks and boyfriends, etc). I didn't find the teachers ignored the girls or that the boys bullied the girls. The school probably makes a big difference as they all have different cultures. I was also top of the class in general, so that might have helped too. The teachers paid attention and my performance wasn't affected by anything. Most of the top students were actually girls.

No
Because boys and girls have to live in a world where there are men and women. Segregating them at a young age doesn't help them prepare for that even if it means they get better results
My husband went to all all boys school, didn't socialise with girls and had a very unreal idea about girls and women

Yes, same in my mixed school - the girls beat the boys in everything but science (whereas far more got higher grades in STEM at the girls school than at the local boys). I do think it changes the learning environment. In dd's primary they only did football, no netball. They had female heavy plays because boys on the whole wanted to do lighting and stage management while girls wanted to sing/wear costumes. It was weirdly gendered and her all girls school has really enabled her to try things that would have been dominated by boys previously.

It is somewhat out of date, and more nuanced research does indicate that this isn't the case. Where there are single sex girls' schools, they are very often selective on ability, also on cultural capital, so that has skewed it.

My primary was mixed. Girls weren't allowed to play football. We were only allowed to play netball. Other way around for the boys. Otherwise I don't remember things being split or it making much difference. My primary did have a horrible culture though and wasn't a warm school.