Should we bring back more single sex schools

[Ddakji]

Slightly following on from some of the threads about Adolescence (which I haven’t seen), I started wondering - has the demise of boys’ schools negatively impacted boys?

I’d be really interested to hear from others, especially the parents of boys - I have one DD (15h who’s been in mixed sex schools most of the time but is now in a girls’ school.

My DS and DD went to single sex schools (local comp). I thought it would be good for them as they would be able to flourish without expectations of boys do this and girls do that subject.

DS ended up with some v peculiar ideas about women (eg feminists/all women were out to get blokes and their money) that he mostly kept to himself sadly else I would have enlightened him. He seemed to see women as an alien species.

DD afterwards said her school was a bitchfest. And decided she was a lesbian whilst in Y9.

DS now - after Uni and work realised that women are not the enemy. And is a much more rounded human being.

DD has given up being a lesbian for the moment and has a lovely boyfriend.

Interestingly both schools are now mixed sex - which has improved the boys school results no end. The girls school is newly changed (not sure how they will go!)

From my anecdata I would not advise single sex schools

I think boys at all boys schools seem to have poor thoughts about women, or at least ignorance. I'm not so sure that all girls schools are bad for girls though. A dilemma I think.

Thanks both for your thoughts. DD’s girls’s school hasn’t been the bitchfest she was expecting, whereas in her co-ed school there were a lot of very boisterous boys who didn’t seem to be reigned in at all.

I just wondered if forcing boys into an education system that might not work for them was in their best interests. And whilst we certainly had plenty of sexism in the past, the toxic masculinity and misogyny we have now seems of a far more vicious nature.

It's a difficult one. My DS attended co-ed schools. He has healthy views on equality and women, but the girls in his class are so much more mature than him, he's 16, that he's painfully shy of girls in general.

I think he'd run a mile if a girl spoke to him beyond normal class.

The only girl he'll chat to is someone he spars with at karate. He sees her as an honorary boy. He sees me as an honorary boy too.

How we get the sexes to converse comfortably as teens, as equals, I do not know.

Do they need to, though?

I went to an all girls school and had a very positive experience. I would have preferred to send my own children to single-sex schools but there are none in our local area.

Isn't it that boys do better in co-ed schools but girls do better in single sex? As in girls get better exam results and are more likely to do STEM subjects at A level in SSS.

Yes, but that means treating girls as support humans for boys which isn’t right.

But I also wonder if male environments for teenage boys might actually work more for them - a teaching environment that doesn’t need to consider what’s best for girls.

So I know what the current received wisdom is, I just wonder if it’s part of the problem.

My DS went to a boy's school. He's got no weird views about women at all. At Uni he was in a mixed flat for the first year (4 boys, 4 girls), and for years 2 and 3, the girls who'd got together first invited him to share with them in the accommodation they'd found, along with another girl, so for the final two years he was in a house share of 6 students, as the only boy with 5 girls! They all got on really well, and he's still friends with them and they still get together 2 or 3 times a year. So it's simply not true the boys get strange ideas - they'd not have invited him to live with them nor continued inviting him to get-togethers if he'd not behaved properly around them. And no, he's not gay, before someone suggests that!!

He still sees friends from secondary school, and we know some of them, and they're all "normal" too, having healthy relationships etc.

Not our experience at all with our son or his school friends. All perfectly normal and no sign of any "poor thoughts" whatever you're inferring they may be.

My DH also went to a boys’ school and throughout his adult life most of his friends have been women and he doesn’t have any odd thoughts at all, and, from what I’ve read on MN, is a much better husband and dad to a daughter than a lot of men!

We can’t blame singe sex schools for the current misogyny and toxic masculinity given that most men, especially younger men, and boys don’t or didn’t attend boys’ schools.

So has a mixed sex school environment helped or hindered boys? Generally speaking, at a societal
level?

My son goes to an all boys and I am going to speak to the leadership team to ask what they are doing to teach them about misogyny. I’m talking to my boys about it at least and wish more parents would, hopefully Adolescence has brought the topic into the mainstream consciousness

Not all schools are like the one showed in adolescence- I do think it’s important to remember that. My kids school is catholic and that I think defo makes a difference as they are taught and expected to live by certain values- my kids are not catholic. I think single sex schools would make the situation worse. What we need is more male teachers in school.

Single sex state schools close or go co-ed for the simple reason that parents don’t want to send their children to them. It’s been well demonstrated that girls do better at single sex schools, but if insufficient parents choose them then they are not viable.

I'm struggling to see the coherence of the argument here. Theres a causation/correlation mix up over teaching and discipline methods rather than an issue with single Vs coed.

I fall to see how any of are any better off is we end up with boys with strange sexist views of women in single sex schools. And the counter argument being we shouldnt enable this because otherwise girls become support humans.

This also doesn't account for how single sex schools tend to be much more likely to be selective and doesn't stop incelism today.

I think someone is fundamentally missing the points here about technology change, political change and sexism. You also don't solve problems with sexism with more sexism.

Theres a private school in our area which has boys and girls divisions - they’re taught separately (except I think for subjects with low uptake in gcse and sixth form) but they can socialise, have clubs, music, theatre etc together. Does anyone have experience of this model? It seems like it might be a good compromise. (Academic performance is good, it’s selective but considerably less so than grammars)

I dont see how things. Will change if we keep segregating sexes

Imo we need to teach from nursery age sex ( age appropriate) relationships money and a healthy friendship

We also need to stop the teacher rules mantra. In Finland kids wear own clothes and call teachers by first name So much more
Normal

The only
Jobs I can think of where we maybe so rigid is consultants
And law

Id definitely not use single sex

Parents generally don't want to send their kids to single sex schools which is why so many of them have gone co-ed.

We are incomparable with Finland in many ways: all teachers there are masters level-educated and are given trust and free rein to design their own curricula. School is not compulsory until 7 but society takes much more responsibility for ensuring children are well-socialised and literate through family time and kindergarten, with much more time outdoors too. Education is well-respected and teachers are seen as professional role models. There is no private education and all schools/classes are mixed ability.

Schools in the UK can only do so much. Much more important in educating and socialising boys and girls is the removal of online influences. Banning smart phones for under-16s is the start of this but this is already problematic bc of the use of online apps for travel, homework, engagement with school etc. We’ve sleep-walked into a mess we’re finding hard to undo now.

@BobLobla

Very true. But that's what I mean by starting very young.

Nursery teaching needs to be more valued here and not seen as a means to an end to get parents back to work.
Higher pay and more staff. Emphasis on life skills and caring rather than reading and maths at age 3!!!

Yes, I understand that - that’s not really what I’m asking, though.

I know a few parents locally who’s sons ended up at an under-subscribed boys school and ended up being really pleased with it and their sons thriving there. It absolutely wasn’t any of their first choices, they were all slightly horrified at the idea of a boys school.

But also @noblegiraffe, as a secondary school teacher, do you think it’s true that boys and girls (generally speaking) learn differently?

The set up @ErrolTheDragon mentioned sounds a good compromise that acknowledges both differences and similarities.

I have been a teacher in state schools for a very long time. I've taught in boys', girls' and mixed schools. By far, the best are mixed, and have a healthier environment all round. Students can form friendships with the opposite sex, and relate to them in a more positive way. The staff seem to be more balanced as well. 🙄
No school I have ever taught in has been problem free, and I cannot speak for the private sector, but mixed schools are better, imo.

Getting rid of SureStart was a disaster and lots of damage was done there. Parents needs to take responsibility for their children’s online activity, backed by legislation. Our own online habits/addictions have made it hard to police this with our own kids and the horse has bolted for a whole generation.

The govt behaviour guru, Tom Bennett, made it very clear for me when he said he gets asked a lot about the ‘ideal’ age for a child to have a smart phone. His answer is ‘anytime you’re happy with them watching hard-core porn’.

Unmonitored online influences are far more insidious than any school-based segregation.

I Went to an all girls school in the 80s, it was rough as anything but fun and 100% gave me a sense of being able to do anything.

It made me a bit wary of boys which at 13+ was maybe a good thing! But it did make me not really ever want to be part of large groups of women, I do find things like hen parties or large group female gatherings a stress.

I tend to prefer working with and socialising with men.

Not sure how much is school related TBH but just my observation.