The devaluation of motherhood

[alwayslemons]

Please excuse me if this post is a little rambling. I’ve been thinking about it a lot but it’s hard to articulate!

I’ve noticed in recent years that it’s become kind of uncool, socially, to have or want children - and certainly to be a SAHM. Almost every young (under 30) woman I’ve spoken to about it has seemed almost proud of the “Children? Gross! I’d rather have a dog” attitude. Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”. Someone I work with was talking about her sister and said “she’s the breeder in the family” because she has children. They’re all on board with the “feminism is about choice” thing, yet curiously contemptuous of any woman who chooses motherhood over a career.

I recently saw an Instagram post from a feminist account about how child free women still need a good work/life balance so the “oh it’s easy for you because you don’t have children” attitude from coworkers is unfair. Which I agree with, but oh my god the comments… honestly, some of them were vile. Calling mothers entitled etc, it was pretty horrible. (Also, sorry, but you considering your dog to be your baby is not the same thing as actually having a baby… I adore dogs, but come on)

Like obviously if you don’t want kids then that’s fine, and nobody should ever be judged for that. But it seems to be swinging pretty far the other way. I’ve noticed it in newspaper articles and on social media, as well as in real life, and honestly I find it kind of upsetting. Both motherhood and being a full time SAHM are things that have been undervalued and taken for granted for the longest time - how in the world is this feminism? It seems more of the same “I’m not like the other girls” nonsense.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me??

Soz for the rambles but I had to get it out, it was really bothering me today!!

True. Makes me so fucking angry.

Sorry, bitter

Because women don’t have the right to be angry and must just be bitter, wizened old hags.

I was looking for this article earlier! The hero tax: Why 'selfless' workers are professionally exploited - BBC Worklife

It relates to paid employment, but I think that unpaid labour (carers, mothers etc) is at the very sharpest end of this phenomenon and its brutal.

I was also thinking about Jordon Peterson's favourite argument that more gender equal societies (e.g. Sweden) tend to have much more gendered work. Well yes, but those more equal/egalitarian societies tend to have better safety nets and less overall disparities in pay. So its safer for women (or anyone) to do the nurturing jobs without completely screwing themselves over. But that aspect is never discussed....

Am only just starting to read this post and have to say this is so relevant. My daughter was adamant she didn’t want children, no way, but like you the men (boys) she had relationships with were very immature selfish and were adamant they didn’t want kids either. I think with my daughter it was a, well it isn’t going to happen, so I’ll cover the fact that I do actually want them with, no I’m never going to have them, to shift some of the disappointment.

She now has a lovely relationship with a man who wants kids treats her well very unselfish and his utmost goal is making her happy and it’s the same for her. She now wants children all of a sudden and I hope at 36 she does.

I don’t think I wanted children until I had them, then I couldn’t get enough of them 😂

Because this is what happens every single time a man shows up here and is indulged rather than told to kindly fuck off out of our space.

Im nearly 51 and knew i didnt want children by the time i was 21. No social media back in 1994 so it wasnt that. i just didnt fancy a life of drudgery, Women expected to work AND do the bulk of housework and childcare. No thanks. Well i reasoned the Government makes you work but they cant force you to have kids so i chose the former. I wasnt willing to run myself ragged doing both. Also kids are a 24/7 job whereas you can leave your workplace at 5pm. or whenever. It was a no brainer for me.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-12860605/After-divorced-45-dates-thought-looking-meal-ticket-love-without-children-getting-jealous.html

BEAR WITH ME. Its this bit.

One, who went on to become a boyfriend, told me he was wary of meeting up as he thought my custody arrangements would mean there wouldn’t be enough time for him.
This man had the usual ‘single dad’ arrangement of having his children every other weekend and one week night. In the end we did arrange a date, but he was definitely disappointed I didn’t have a more equal division of care He was up front about it and I just absorbed his irritation and stayed silent

Yet he obviously wasnt doing that same equal division of care with his own ex.

the last line in that post is mine not Rosies

I can see at the age of 21 you might think it was the better option, but drudgery??

Looking back it all goes so quickly and the idea of it being a drudgery 24/7 just isn’t my experience. Yes extremely hard at times and you don’t think you’ll survive the lack of sleep and demands on you, but it can be wonderful too. If you don’t have children then you often don’t get to see all the other stuff, so it’s hard to imagine there’s any real reward for all that hard work, but for me that’s not the case.

I went back part time when they were little and full time once they went to school and if I regret anything at all it’s not having spent more time with them. These are also the thoughts of many women I know too, if they could have their time again, they’d be at home more and some of these never wanted kids in the first place.

Yes you can l leave work at 5pm but I never left work thinking “oh no more drudgery, I wish I only had a working life”! I knew I was going home to see my children, no job could better than that for me.

We’re all different and have different needs etc. and clearly that wasn’t for you. The women who regret having children over a career, would be, I suggest in the absolute minority. I certainly don’t know of any.

To imagine that the best thing about work over kids is being able to clock off at 5pm, shows a lack of understanding of what having a child brings you, which is of course natural, as you don’t have that experience.

It was, I presume the right choice for you, but I’ve never heard anyone describe being a mother as drudgery.

There are different flavours of feminism, and there are some flavours that have been co-opted by capitalism. I am fairly well-read on feminism, (I wouldn't try to claim expertise) however, I will attempt to sum up my understanding in reply to your comment. Womens liberation, the founding principle of radical feminism, argues that women are different to men and that our biology leads to different life experiences. Those differences are not weaknesses, but do introduce vulnerabilities into our lives, particularly around reproduction and parenthood. Society has been established to suit men, governed and ruled by men, and devalues the female experience, in fact disadvantages women through systemic inequality, in law and social custom. So, radical feminism seeks to acknowledge this, and argue that our differences be valued, that women be afforded the same freedom to live without discrimination, and with laws and social customs that do not discriminate, but actually value women fully as humans, and support our choices to determine our own lives, regardless of, but fully cognisant of our needs. If women choose to not have children (and choice is fundamental), they remain fully human and valued as such. If women choose to have children, society must provide that which can be provided to enable that choice in a way that retains womens autonomy and security. By this I mean, having children should not be seen as a personal hobby, something individual women need to sort out for themselves, but as a role in society. So if women need "special" support, that should be considered a human right rather than special "women's" rights, because if men and women are truly considered as equal, our right should be considered as equally important to society as men's. This has been bastardised somewhat. Some narratives say that equality means being more like men for example. This means that women need to ignore biology and simply ignore their femaleness if they want equality. This is not women's liberation, but holding men and men's lives as the standard to which women should aim to live by. That the system is designed to preference men anyway is not discussed in this narrative. True radical feminism seeks to dismantle the structures that see men as the default human, and women as the inferior human with special needs that men can support or not. Basically, feminism says that women should be liberated so that any choice they make is seen as valid, and that includes choosing a career, having children and taking care of them as their life's work, or anything in between. Feminism does not denigrate women and their choices, ever.

What is the 20% statistic? Is it that 20% of women who are in relationships have chosen to never have children? Or just that 20% of women don't have children?

According to surveys, 92.4% of British young women hope to be mothers. So it's still the case that the vase majority of women do see having children as part of the natural progression of life.

Thank you so much for this! A really informative post.

I've also noticed a trend of women being embarassed by their femininity (or at least, stereotypically female traits) in general, not just in terms of wanting to be a mother. This derision, from what I've observed, predominantly comes from other women. It's super cool to be a woman who loves playing football, fixing cars, or works as a structural engineer. But if you admit you love cleaning, baking, and embroidery and your main hope in life is to have lots of children, the judgement and disdain is palpable.

And as always happens when people feel demeaned, the response becomes even more extreme - e.g. in the "Trad Wife" internet trend.

@MyFirstLittlePony

Actually coming from a former communist country, we didn't have SAHM at all. I didn't understand the concept when I encountered it in the west.

My mother took three months maternity leave with my brother (in communist times) because he'd been premature, and she was bored solid by the end of it.
(He's ok, he's a surgeon now.)

I think statistics show that 20% of 45 year old women in this country don’t have children. Not 20% of the women I know, it has to be said.

Ok. You said before that 20% were rejecting motherhood. There's a big difference between women finding themselves without children and actively choosing not to have them. In reality, only 7.6% women actually choose not to have them.

(Choose not to have them in the sense that, when surveyed, they've said they don't want children. Many more women find themselves childless but not out of choice)

You’re not wrong - there has been a massive drive to destabilise the family unit and motherhood.

I had my children nearly 30 years ago and happily enjoyed bringing them up as a sahm.

I would not have children now because the thought of having a child and then going straight back to work and juggling childcare straight away wouldn't appeal to me, it would seem like a chore and I'd be too tired to enjoy my children and my job.
Everyone is different but I don't have enough energy to be a mum in my spare time, leaving me with no time.

I enjoyed being a mum and then having some spare time, I enjoy having a career now and having my spare time but I just couldn't have managed both so wouldn't have become a mum today.
My dd doesn't want children because she doesn't feel she'd have time for them and it would be too stressful.

@gardentimeofyear Like me you didnt want to be run ragged doing both. You made the opposite choice to me but for the same reason

That's my mindset too. Be a mum / have spare time - not be a mum / have a job / no spare time. We manage on one income in this day and age, the trade off is living a smaller house.

Yes it’s been recognised as a bit of a problem with an aging workforce and fewer young people to take jobs. Not just in the UK but Europe generally.

Kids are great but hard work. I think it's sad that girls are being like this but also not surprising. Women are (rightly so) bitter. It is not respected AT ALL.

I think there is a push towards breakdown of the family unit in western countries for some reason. And I don’t think feminism has helped. Women are being told they don’t need to be with a man, there is this notion that all men are bad. You don’t need to settle down and have a family, have a career instead. Having children is bad for the environment. There is a blurring between the sexes so men are becoming more effeminate, women are being encouraged not to fall into female stereotypes. Marriage is starting to be seen as outdated and people are becoming more fickle in their relationships. Social media hasn’t helped either. People are becoming more selfish. They are too engrossed in their phones, taking selfies and their image. How many times have you seen people out and about on their phones (I’ve even seen them doing it when crossing the road, mums more interested in their phones than spending time with their children). They care more about themselves than anyone else.

Sadly with the cost of living that isn’t possible for a lot of people this day and age even in a smaller house. Everything has gone up in price and then there’s shrinkflation where products are being made smaller and the price has stayed the same. I’m noticing it more and more. E.g. I noticed cartons of oat milk by one brand seem to be a third smaller all of a sudden. ‘Large’ packets of crisps aren’t much bigger than regular packets, and the regular bags of crisps are all air with about 15 crisps if you’re lucky. Many young people are now priced out of having a family. If taxes on working people do go up then it will make it even worse. Taking into account what I said in my earlier post as well, it’s not surprising the birth rate has plummeted in the Uk.

Labour are pushing to build more housing etc to make it easier for young people to get on the housing ladder, but has anyone heard any mention of them cracking down on private equity firms buying up large numbers of housing in the Uk to rent out, or on short-term holiday let’s? If that isn’t addressed then what’s the point?

i’m guessing that you had these calculations to hand because you threw them at your ex multiple times when together?