The devaluation of motherhood

[alwayslemons]

Please excuse me if this post is a little rambling. I’ve been thinking about it a lot but it’s hard to articulate!

I’ve noticed in recent years that it’s become kind of uncool, socially, to have or want children - and certainly to be a SAHM. Almost every young (under 30) woman I’ve spoken to about it has seemed almost proud of the “Children? Gross! I’d rather have a dog” attitude. Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”. Someone I work with was talking about her sister and said “she’s the breeder in the family” because she has children. They’re all on board with the “feminism is about choice” thing, yet curiously contemptuous of any woman who chooses motherhood over a career.

I recently saw an Instagram post from a feminist account about how child free women still need a good work/life balance so the “oh it’s easy for you because you don’t have children” attitude from coworkers is unfair. Which I agree with, but oh my god the comments… honestly, some of them were vile. Calling mothers entitled etc, it was pretty horrible. (Also, sorry, but you considering your dog to be your baby is not the same thing as actually having a baby… I adore dogs, but come on)

Like obviously if you don’t want kids then that’s fine, and nobody should ever be judged for that. But it seems to be swinging pretty far the other way. I’ve noticed it in newspaper articles and on social media, as well as in real life, and honestly I find it kind of upsetting. Both motherhood and being a full time SAHM are things that have been undervalued and taken for granted for the longest time - how in the world is this feminism? It seems more of the same “I’m not like the other girls” nonsense.

Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me??

Soz for the rambles but I had to get it out, it was really bothering me today!!

i was a sahm for 7 years and never ever felt judged negatively because of this family decision

And then went back to work post divorce part time and also…. never ever felt judged for not going full time

Openly sneering when they see a child in public like there’s no greater irritant. After one of my friends had a baby, some others (all women) were talking in a fairly unpleasant way about how she no longer had anything interesting to say and it was like she was just a “baby machine”.

you hang around awful people op.
in what scenario are they sneering at mothers in public? how do you know? are you friends with the sneerers?!

He is all over the feminist threads on mumsnet

spouting nonsense and venom about his ex

im surprised he’s not been booted off

I actually think it's really sad. I know loads of attractive, lovely single women in their thirties who years ago would have been considered a catch and snapped up by a nice man. But men nowadays in our culture men can get casual sex much more easily than previous times so they can't be bothered to settle down. So women are kind of convincing themselves that a nice husband and kids is not what they wanted anyway.

ComedyCook nailed it. Apps and hook up culture plus the social climate around work and the unsustainable cost of living and housing are going to fuck the birth rate. We’re sleepwalking into a population crisis because we have prioritised profits.

Feminism and victim culture has played a massive role in the breakdown of the nuclear family. A living arrangement that has served humanity well for 1000’s of years.

I don’t really agree with much of what you’ve said here.

Men in their 30’s who are single have typically been married and divorced. Men normally get screwed massively in divorce. Lots decide to steer well clear.

Dating as a guy is crap, don’t believe me, ask sone of your male friends. You message 50 women who are similar place in life to you and probably get one reply. And that’s not just me saying that, it’s well backed up with statistics. There is a very attractive 10% or so of guys who 90% of women are chasing. While they busily “friend zone” the guys who are actually in their league and would treat them well.

Cost of living has to be a factor. It takes two people working to be able to afford rent etc. it's usually women that are expected to do everything - work outside the home and inside the home.

I think motherhood has always been devalued and disrespected. It's just obvious now as women are fed up of doing it all.

The majority of people in the UK marry for the first time aged over 30 years old. Female fertility declines hugely by 35. So actually the window for meeting someone is very small for women if they do want kids. For men they don’t have that time pressure if they want kids. Nobody’s is saying life is easy for men either but the pressures are very different.

blog.ons.gov.uk/2019/04/01/married-by-30-youre-now-in-the-minority/amp/

It’s a cruel trick that’s been played on a lot of women who are pushed towards a career only to realise when it’s actually quite hard thst family is what they want.

I agree with you OP. I used to read lots of feminist sources when I was younger, mostly social media and there was never anything positive to say about motherhood. It really just came up when talking about not having children. It was missed out a lot. I think quite a lot of feminist activists and writers don’t have children. At least it appears that way.

I'm a feminist and I love being a mother.

I love your mum. How wonderful!!
I'm trying to balance/justify/understand my feminism and own life where my husband bears the stress of a high powered job while I support him, the kids, the house and the business, write a book and keep my own identity ..!
It's very complex. 🧠🙃🔔

Yes Agree.
They are a huge sacrifice of around 20 years, risk to health, ruination of body, cost, ungrateful at the end, huge projects of your time, thought, effort, cash etc etc etc.
Logically why would you take that project on for no status, no cash, being kicked in the teeth by society and little support from partners and extended family? It doesn't make logical sense but society presents a fairy tale supported by society and by the time you realise it, it's too late and you keep the myth alive although it's made your life 100 times harder. That's the honest truth. 🙃

Yes, we keep the myth that being a mother is personally fulfilling - I mean overall, looking back with adult kids - but it's the opposite I feel. It can suck your soul far out of you because of self sacrifice.
You shouldn't talk about it much because you might be one of those mothers who doesn't 'love' their kids enough.

I wonder if it’s linked with gender ideology in a way. Gender ideology is regressive and reifies stereotypes. I’m shocked by how backwards so many young people are in their views towards things like boys wearing pink, girls having short hair, etc, etc. And, of course, we see girls wanting to escape the over-sexualised, dolled up idea of womanhood they see in the media.

So, perhaps their scornful attitude towards motherhood is connected. Motherhood is a woman thing - ie inferior in their minds. Instead of understanding that women being equal to men, doesn’t mean they have to be exactly the same as men, they can only see womanhood in terms of stereotypes, which they don’t like, so they also reject and denigrate being a mother as an ‘inferior choice’.

Sorry - not a great explanation of what I’m thinking, but I’ve been interrupted by my own progeny 😂

No you’ve explained it perfectly well. It’s similar to what I have suggested when chatting about this type of thing with others.
I think we’ve made the mistake of thinking equality means parroting men’s behaviour,goals and lifestyles.
Equality should simply be a recognition of a woman’s worth in society, for who she is not on the basis of her similarities to men. It saddens me that the very essence of what it means to be a woman is being eroded or looked down on and often by other women!!

The problem is males are society’s default, so any woman following a mothering role can’t compete with that.

I’ve said it previously, that I know many women who now regret time spent at work, rather than at home with their children and these are women who were fiercely feminist.

It's not quite right to say that women think they want "careers" rather than children (or as well as, but they do the career first and then can't fit the children in). Women have to have jobs. There is no societal expectation by men or the state or somehow society at large that women will be supported while or after they have children. So they know they have to work, so they do. Housing is so expensive, life is so precarious, no one is saying "but if you get pregnant, I'll take care it, and you, and the baby" - so they don't.
Well, some do, and they are vilifed, on here as much as anywhere. Every post with someone struggling with the expenses and logistics of life with children involves someone sneering that perhaps they should not have had them.

I'd love to be looked after. I am 52 with teenaged children and a fucking tough insecure job and a useless ex and I have been trying to be in two places at once for 17 years and fucking exhausted. If someone said I didn't have to work (so much) I would bite their fucking hand off and take the contempt that SAHMs supposedly face. Maybe 20 hours in Aldi or a bit of part time receptionist work in a local office I could walk to. Would absolutely fucking love it.

I’m not actually against encouraging women back into the workforce. The men of the millennial generation I have seen so far are actually very good at picking up the gauntlet of care and really sharing 50:50 on this. The only thing now which is really holding this back is the over representation of women at groups/ activities which can make the men feel uncomfortable.

But yes I get what you’re saying OP. But I think there’s two things going on there.

1. Is people pre children who absolutely do not want children at that point in time. I think that’s quite natural.

2… it’s mothers who are back at work, or will be going back to work who aren’t really subscribing to the SAHM is best for baby trope anymore. And that’s not saying it couldn’t be. If you were financially comfortable on one income, not stretched with spending time doing other household duties, well rested, energetic, not depressed or isolated, well socialised and with funds for a variety of social and activity sessions; then sure yes it might be better. But that’s not most people.

@achipandachair "If someone said I didn't have to work (so much) I would bite their fucking hand off and take the contempt that SAHMs supposedly face. "

It depends doesn't it. If the deal is "I will work and support you and you will stay at home with the children and I will appreciate you for raising our children while I work", then that's great. I think a lot of women would appreciate that, especially when the children are small. But often it becomes "I will work and support you, and you should be really grateful for that basically be my household appliance because I am paying for you". Urgh. Even if it isn't that bad, it often seems to shift the power balance in relationship a lot. Even though some men might pay lip service to the idea the working parent and SAHM roles are equal but different- that really falls apart when talking abut divorce. Then it becomes "she took half of everything he had/everything he worked for". Even decent men I know are a little outraged at this. Based on conversations around that I don't think that many men actually see the two roles as equal no matter what they say.

Plus, most couples can't afford it anyway.

It's difficult to be a mother so women are having fewer children.

It's even hard to rent or buy a home that is big enough for children.

Being a mother is hard, and it is a lot more socially acceptable not to have children than it used to be. Previously not having kids was seen as weird and sad.
Being unmarried was low status and shameful.

I'm on the fence about having kids so joined some childfree groups and omg I agree. The venom some people have. I hate the term "breeders" and shaming women when their kids cry or are noisy.

I think even if you are adamant you don't want kids, there is always a grieving process that goes with it. It hurts to say no to whole potential life. It can also feel really lonely when everyone around you is starting families and you are left behind.

I don't condone the behaviour but I think it's where the anger comes from.

Child free groups are crazy though. I really don't think the views on there can be extrapolated to what wider society thinks because it's quite self selecting (and non crazy like yourself will select out). I agree some of it will be coming from a place of hurt at not being able to have kids.

I find your post really sad. You’re talking about children and the lack of support etc but your last paragraph about “I’d loved to be looked after”, says far more, than the difficulties you mention of raising children.
It’s sounds like it’s the relationship with your ex that’s at the source. I really hope this comes over in the way it’s meant but, what do you need from someone else that would make you feel you’re looked after?

From the sounds of it it sounds like you’re doing most of the raising of your children with little or no support that’s a different subject to wanting to be looked after. It does sound cliche but you need to be your own carer. Expecting or relying on others to make you happy is doomed to failure.

Oh my lord!!! Is that how you feel. My goodness what a sad representation of motherhood/parenthood! I’ve never actually met anyone who feels that way!
I have three grown daughters and they have always been and are a constant gift to me. Yes it was b**y heard, and often, but they give me so much in return. I’d do it all again and I was ill for much of their growing up.
I think calling it a myth is a stretch. It’s not the same for everyone I agree, but it doesn’t mean that it can’t be great and that that doesn’t exist.

Me too ❤️