We are going to end up with a Conservative government AGAIN at this rate, is that ok with everyone?

[MentholLoad]

following a thread on AIBU I think about who would vote Tories again.....the main (only?) reason people are citing for voting Tories is the GC issue. Women totally abandoning social politics over a singular issue. declaring nothing else matters, if Labour can't get this right then, they won't vote for them

I can't work out if these people were Conservative voter's anyway/actually do agree that Conservative policy and practice generally, is in our best interests compared with Labour

OR they are prioritising GC issues above and at the exclusion of all else? because alot more women will have a lot more issues, if we have yet another round of Conservative Government

And they are ignoring that Labour (finally!) defined women as adult human female

AND ignoring that this whole debacle has happened under the Tories 🤷🏼‍♀️

Again, if posters want to outline specifics on how they intend to face what is ahead I’ll listen

I'm not a politician, but if I was:

1. invest in the border force and quick processing of those claiming asylum. Consider paying France to host an asylum processing centre on their side of the channel.
2. work on return agreements and send back migrants who have no reason to be here.
3. have a strategy to detect and prosecute the employers who use migrant/illegal labour and pay off book.
4. have a visa system so companies can access migrant labour through legitimate means (possibly time limited visas) and make that system accessible in some of the poorest countries.
5. get back in the Dublin convention.
6. aggressively pursue and prosecute modern slavery and human trafficking gangs.

Things I wouldn't do:
Pay my mates vast sums of money to rent a not fit for purpose accommodation for less than 0.001% of migrants
Pay vast sums of money for a legally dodgy scheme to remove les than 0.001% migrants to a country with a questionable human rights record
Pay to make detention centres hostile and unwelcoming to children
Give inaccurate briefings to newspapers about how dangerous asylum seekers are

A bit of realism from Labour supporters would be welcome at this point

Fix the world might go down well at Miss World but not sure the world news is aligning with that right now.

Can someone at least attempt a realistic version?

If no one will try then I guess we can all agree it is looking more volatile.

It will be chaotic and difficult. These threads take ages to move from we don’t have a problem. To finally, yes we do

So whatever we do is likely to be out of many people’s current comfort zones based on old post war set up

Things it won’t do

Actually change migration patterns

The patronising tone really isn't warranted. You obviously like to think that you're cleverer than others on this thread and that you have more insight into what's coming, but the solutions you're backing unfortunately don't appear to support that perception.

If you think the Rwanda plan and a maybe a barge or two will address the migration issue, and that Sunak's abandonment of the climate agenda in order to win a few extra votes is a reasonable way forward, then it makes sense to vote for the Tories.

Personally, I'm looking for a bit more vision than that, and some longer term thinking, but each to their own.

On these threads I get loads of snide comments. It fills up with it before we get to the yes we have a problem posts.

I wouldn’t claim to be thick, I’m sure other people are not either, but I have lower aversion to some policies due to my background and can see what has worked in other countries I have lived in. Happy non-extreme places where policies are bi-partisan.

I also like to look forward for trends and try to plan, for me but importantly for my dc

Having lived in other countries and having access to different perspectives does indeed provide valuable opportunities to reflect and learn. However, my own background and experience of living in different countries has clearly led me to different conclusions from yours.

I understand that you like to plan ahead for yourself and your dc. I tend to think more broadly than that personally, probably due to the values that my parents instilled in me from a young age. I don't feel the need to try to second guess what's going to happen in the future, but I have done my best to give my dd the skills and attitudes that will enable her to adapt and thrive in whatever scenarios she may face. The rest will be up to her.

A bit of realism from Labour supporters would be welcome at this point

I suspect i would come under your banner of Labour supporter, yet i told you what has to happen if we wish to stop the migration into the UK and/or EU - Use force! we will have to tow back boats into French and Libyan/Tunisian waters, refuse to rescue people (and watch them drown)
You up for any of that? & the fallout as we clash with France/EU ?

Your faith in the Rwandan scheme is misplaced, when it was announced and would inc migrants already here, crossings went up and at risk of repeating myself, 1000 plces will deter 100,000 waiting to cross from France over the next 12 to 18months.
You also have to have a plan B if the SC rules for the appeal court judgement - not heard one from anyone yet.

Australia's methods might work if we had a handy Island we could dump migrants onto (closing it off to the worlds media too) but we haven't.

Anyway, got a TV series to catch up on.

On what basis are you claiming to think ‘more broadly’?

I don’t think I could think bigger picture if I tried. I’m looking at global trends over U.K. specific

The mention of being ‘brought up with values’ makes me think it’s a moral claim. I doubt you can make a case there, although it feels very self assured.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about thinking broadly in terms of scanning global trends etc. I don't doubt that you do that.

I meant more broadly in terms of my focus. You have mentioned several times that you like to plan ahead for you and your dc. There is nothing wrong with that, but my focus in political discussions tends to be more on society as a whole rather than my own family. That's just how I was raised. Is it a moral judgement? Not exactly, but it is a statement of what is morally important to me.

Well of course it’s a societal issue, for anyone.

The difference is one country has accepted on a bi-partisan level higher controls and it is the opposite to extreme. it is completely accepted and won’t be reversed.

The other country is fighting against the same approach with a fair bit of voting and legal pressure

The first country still has voters who think broadly on a society-wide basis. Of course people do. It’s a different conclusion though.

Oh, you're still talking about the offshore processing? Fair enough. I was talking in more general terms.

As I have already said, I don't think the Australian model is the same as the Rwanda plan, and it isn't a model that I would aspire to in any case, but you stick with it if you like.

You won’t have another version that is nice and orderly.

As you’ve acknowledged a problem but can’t see a solution I’ll suggest that preference for ignoring it won’t last for long.

Until we address the underlying issues that contribute to mass migration, there won't be a solution. I think you - and the government - are focusing on the wrong issue, and so your strategies are doomed to failure.

This is unrealistic. You cannot reorder the world to a pre volatile version.

I’m sure many would like it to be the case, particularly outside the U.K. but wishing for it won’t make it happen.

I mean take the news this past few weeks. Floods, earthquakes, Hamas, Ukraine, island overwhelmed, probably more.

US starting to question ultra high levels of funding, France says no to Italy on migrants, Germany similar

I’m actually pretty happy in life as it goes, I am lucky but the idea we can actually reroute all these issues and significantly alter where we are headed seems so pie in the sky I’m not sure where it’s coming from.

If you can't address the underlying issues, then be prepared to live the with consequences. The Rwanda plan is not going to fix it, and I don't think even the Tory party are naive enough to think that it will. They just want to make a show of doing something.

I'm not quite as defeatist as you are. Of course it isn't possible to fix all of the world's problems, but I would like to see the UK and other nations working harder to tackle issues such as climate change, poverty etc. Yes, they are hugely complex and challenging issues with no easy solutions, but with concerted effort, I do believe that progress could be made.

If it isn't, then like I say, mass migration will be the least of our worries.

How much funding are you suggesting to get the results you are after?

Can you be specific about what you’d spend and put in place to ensure we avoid growing volatility

The billions going to the Ukraine are not resolving that yet

So each country on that level plus more. It will need funds, policies and people

Add Israel and Palestine and every effort to stop further destabilisation within ME

I think you’re too removed from what’s going on

I suppose it could be seen as a single issue, if the single issue is the betterment of the UK and its citizens.

Let's face it, the Tory party has wrecked the country. It is weaker, sicker, more divided and shittier than it was when the Conservatives took power. And still the Tories are a chaotic shambles. Nearly everyone recognises this, even Tory members and MPs. Sure, there are a few pockets on the internet that still believe in them, but it is just that: A Belief. And a rather irrational one with no basis in reality.

I'm not standing for election here or setting out my own personal manifesto.

I'm simply stating my view that you - and the Tories - are focusing on the wrong issues in my view, and that we need our politicians to have more vision and longer term thinking. Of course, I accept that our political system doesn't lend itself to that.

I accept, too, that Labour doesn't have all the answers. I think they too are lacking vision and real long term thinking, but the green investment plan is at least a step in the right direction.

As for the suggestion that I'm too far removed from what's going on...no, not really. It's my very proximity to what has been going on under the last 13 years of Tory rule that makes the idea of voting for them unthinkable. But you carry on in your happy little bubble...

I thought you were avoiding snide remarks 🤷‍♂️ clearly not.

Asking on funding because it’s so vague it’s unrealistic.

Surely you can see it’s Hallmark at this point to look at the absolutely massive funding flowing to Ukraine and Israel just to keep the global situation from actually imploding, that the idea we can airily create a non volatile version of the world is simply fantasy.

I mean we’re on the edge already. And we’re not in the face of increased climate pressures yet.

Ok, I get that you think I'm being unrealistic in wanting to at least try to address the underlying issues.

So what do you think is the way forward, then? Send 1000 people to Rwanda and then what? Build a wall around the UK, Trump-style? Create a whole fleet of barges in which to house the migrants? Leave them all to drown? Rocket them into space?

What about climate change? I assume you're resigned to it because you seem to have given up on idea of trying to tackle it So what strategies do you think we will all need to adopt in order to live with the consequences here in the UK? You've said you're a planner so I'm assuming that you've thought about it quite a lot?

I haven’t given up on climate issues. We have made changes here that I’m pretty sure others haven’t. Changing behaviour is something I did a couple of years ago. I do think we’re ahead on emissions generally and given the massive issues we’re about to encounter I’m ok with a bit more room. Net zero is still in place in original year.

I don’t know what the court will rule, I think deterrence generally works over greater ease. Given that easy and orderly movement will not exist I think people will need to decide which way to go.

We cannot insulate ourselves from the world as much as we might want go.
And I think its morally wrong to leave other humans to starve/be murdered just because they were born in a different part of the globe.
Putting up stronger borders and saying "I'm alright jack" is no solution to what's happening.
Telling British people simultaneously "we are full, no migrants" and "have more babies, our culture is threatened by the low birth rate" is xenophobic and inhumane.

Yes you’ve said this before. I take it there’s no limit for you on number of people.

Have you given thought to how many you envisage?