We are going to end up with a Conservative government AGAIN at this rate, is that ok with everyone?

[MentholLoad]

following a thread on AIBU I think about who would vote Tories again.....the main (only?) reason people are citing for voting Tories is the GC issue. Women totally abandoning social politics over a singular issue. declaring nothing else matters, if Labour can't get this right then, they won't vote for them

I can't work out if these people were Conservative voter's anyway/actually do agree that Conservative policy and practice generally, is in our best interests compared with Labour

OR they are prioritising GC issues above and at the exclusion of all else? because alot more women will have a lot more issues, if we have yet another round of Conservative Government

And they are ignoring that Labour (finally!) defined women as adult human female

AND ignoring that this whole debacle has happened under the Tories 🤷🏼‍♀️

A barrister..

Not personally a factor here when looking at policies but ok

This was what I was referring to: some may find interesting given the state of the Conservatives

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/the-era-of-flat-earth-conservatism-max-hastings/

Never mentioned polices, i was referring to your accusation that he is weak, as well you know i was.

Still nothing on how anyone would actually stop Med and x channel migration, given how determined people are to come to Europe, the USA tried imprisonment and fences, still 100s of 1000s heading north.

I used to vote Tory, voted for Thatcher twice but todays Conservatives are far too extreme.
Hardly surprising he has decided to vote differently.

You already asked about this. Scroll back for answer

There isn’t an easy answer to migration that won’t feel quite a shift to where many are comfortable

People will need to accept a new set of views or being challenged by mass movement

There isn’t a nice middle road you can install for orderly movement

@Howpo / yes it's off putting to many traditional Tories. The lack of moderation in the Cabinet and also frankly the economic incompetence will put them off. Elections are won from the centre.

Aus isn’t any where near ‘extreme’ it’s a Labor gov with controlled borders. A country can be in the centre and prioritise security.

I have a feeling many EU politicians are going to find out just how much citizens demand safety in the next few years.

The U.K. probably adds a layer removal, but I can’t see it not getting there despite the usual pro Labour posts.

I’m really not sure what is being fought for though, a lack of preparation for incoming movement.

I read the article and his later comments, and I follow the debate🙄
He was very clearly referring to a subset of people in politics. I assume the ones who won't recognise trans people in any context whatsoever and want the GRA entirely repealed. That isn't me and I don't think its most GC feminists.
I don't like his language and its weird he is confused about cervixes. But I don't think its a party view, or one that applies to me so I just filed it under "stupid things politicians once said".

This is an example from the other side of the house:

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/06/dominic-raab-confuses-meaning-of-misogyny-in-bbc-interview

Dominic Raab: misogyny is absolutely wrong, whether it’s a man against a woman or a woman against a man

Or this:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23313558.conservative-woman-event-mocked-six-men-take-stage/

Migration is not making citizens "unsafe"

I note your change of phrase to "irregular migration" so people don't pull you up on the fact you are actually talking about asylum seekers. And this implication of people being "unsafe" is just a cover to enable people to engage in the human "fear of the other".

Sometimes I think this kind of debate just gives people the opportunity to practices their lines.

I can use the term I wish

I have seen illegal migration used here which sometimes attracts comments, so I switched to irregular migration as used by EU to avoid that

If it’s good enough for EU policy makers it’s good enough for me

I’m not ‘practicing lines’ whatever the fuck that means

I am looking ahead and hoping people will realise global trends are changing. Migration will increase. It’s inevitable given climate. I have no idea why people are fighting against that fact.

Is it just an inability to look forward?

I really don’t get why these threads are so difficult.

People attacking on a personal level and pulling up on minor details

I’m not sure people realise what is going on. Do you read the news? See the volatility and increased pressures?

Is it just an ability to look forward?

No, it isn't that.

Ok so you think you can envisage what will change. Does it involve more people moving?

How do you see people reacting and what do you think will be put in place?

No, I agree that we'll see more movement as a result of climate change. I just don't think you need any special ability to "look forward" in order to predict that. Any idiot can see what's coming. Some people just don't frame the issue in the same way that you do.

Climate change is the threat, here, not migrants. Our approach can't simply be about keeping other people out, we are all in this together. It's a shame that Rishi Sunak seems to have ditched the climate agenda in favour of short term electoral gain.

It is foolish to believe that the silly little Rwanda policy is going to make the blindest bit of difference. That's just political posturing - making a show of doing something rather than actually facing the really difficult questions. We need some really radical thinking, which I haven't yet seen from either party, about how we are either going to begin to address the underlying issues that are causing people to move or how we are all going to adapt to the new normal. The trouble is, nobody knows what to do.

So you can see it will strain existing systems but no idea on what will happen or what we’ll do. You don’t think countries will react by tightening borders?

The U.K. is a small piece in the climate issue, this narrow focus is equally frustrating.

Another location is obviously based on Aus policy and it’s not a ‘silly little policy’ for them as both parties have embraced it. As have citizens. They’re pretty happy in a non-extreme country and won’t vote for anything else.

I like it here but their ability to get over this hurdle and our inability to even discuss it makes me irritated for us, and my dc

I’m happy for people to spell out an alternate reality where it’s sunshine and order given changes, as yet no one has. Just keep going over minor details like wording and personal jibes. Frustrating

But if someone can sell in a nicer version, I’ll listen

Honestly, if we fail to act on climate change, countries tightening border controls is going to be the least of our worries.

Immigration just isn't a major concern for me. The issues that feed into mass migration are hugely important though, and I want to see action on those. It is deeply concerning to me that the Tories under Sunak seem to have decided that tackling climate change is too unpopular amongst their base. Of course, the UK can't do it alone, but does that mean that we should just give up and accept that we're all doomed? They have also cut the foreign aid budget, which won't have helped.

For all the talk of the Rwanda policy, it isn't working and it won't work. The numbers being discussed are so tiny that I don't even think the Tories expect it to work, it's just a political gimmick to appeal to the right wing. Obviously, on that measure, it's pretty effective. For the rest of us, it achieves nothing.

It obviously has to actually work for people to want it. If you listen to people who have done it in Aus they explain why they think it will.

It’s exactly the same as Aus and if it requires another layer people can decide if they that too. Everyone in Aus knows no party will reverse it. Because it works. And the alternative is chaotic and unwanted.

We cannot solve global issues. Not alone and not even concerted effort. Look at the news. Look at his strained people are becoming.

Again, if posters want to outline specifics on how they intend to face what is ahead I’ll listen

At the moment it’s an acknowledgment it’ll get worse but we can try to join up somehow and fix other countries. It’s really not a policy nor is it realistic.

Oh gosh we are back on the reasons why Australia isn't comparable to the UK

1. Australia is surrounded by an ocean so there is more chance to intercept the boats
2. the ocean means the boats are bigger, easier to spot and intercept
3. much of the coastline of Australia is nowhere near any habitable land so the migrants couldn't take their chances and land on any old coastline
4. therefore the Australians could put in place better interception amd detection strategies and stop/turn back the boats before they reached land
5. they also invested heavily in interception
6. they still have a problem with migration, its just now by air. Figures were higher than ever last year.

The Australian model says nothing about the potential success or not of the Rwanda proposal.

Oh gosh are we back to posters thinking they know more than people who set it up in Aus

I don't think everyone shares your positive assessment of Australia's offshore processing scheme, but even if everyone agreed that it had been a resounding success, Priti Patel herself made the point that the government's Rwanda scheme is not comparable. You say it is exactly the same as the Australian model. It was her policy, and she disagrees.

And of course, we can't solve global issues by ourselves. I'm sorry if the Tory conclusion is now that we should just stop trying.

Still nothing on this lovely orderly world where people movement works well and is not chaotic nor overwhelming

Feel free to sell it in…

I'm not claiming to have all of the answers. I just don't think Sunak and his mates have any of the solutions either. And as far as climate change is concerned, they appear to have given up trying.

I wondered what David Lammy had said about his 'dinosaurs' remark, so I googled. Here are some results.

An account of DL's speech.

https://labourlist.org/2021/09/anti-trans-members-are-dinosaurs-who-want-to-hoard-rights-says-lammy/

Woman's Place produced a transcript of a DL interview, starring Nick Robinson as Jeremy Paxman. 😂Sadly the original is no longer available on the bbc link.

https://womansplaceuk.org/2021/09/29/david-lammy-on-the-today-programme/

What MN thought about DL's remarks at the time:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4360373-Rights-hoarding-dinosaurs-according-to-David-Lammy

If anyone has any other ideas about what issue he was addressing & whom he meant by 'dinosaurs', it would be interesting to hear them.